50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Yep it is a mighty performance and I am always a bit cautious about the possibility of drug use in such a seeming breakthrough.

In Whiteman's case there are a few things that give me hope that it is clean.

Whiteman was a dual Olympian who ran 1.45/3.32. Not too many guys of that class continue racing seriously into their 40s particularly 800/1500 guys.

He took a number of years away from high level running after his elite pro years but maintained a well balanced fitness regime during this time.

His seeming lack of decline from 39 to 45 could be simply that he was rebuilding his base as a 39 year old.

His masters mile best is 4 seconds slower than Lagat's. At their best there was 6 seconds difference over 1500 so that seems realistic (if you believe Lagat is clean). Whiteman was more an 800/1500 to Lagat 1500/5000 so his masters 800 best of 1.48 sounds about right in comparison to his mile. Maybe (we can hope) he is a guy with just the perfect profile for great masters performances. It will be intersting to see if he is still setting AG records in his 50s.

That would be my thought: how many 3:32 guys have attempted to run at this level as masters (and you can more or less take out Africans, who so far don't seem to have been heavily involved in master's track)?

50 days until I can join you fine gentlemen (and women?) in the 50+.

I've been running well - ran a 17:41 5k (AG 82.8%) last week, which is pretty good for me. I'm hoping I can build on that through the fall and into indoor track.

These last 50 days seem eternal.

coming your way - don't think too many are worried about your posting here before turning 50. It's good content that's appreciated.

Sorry to read of both cycling incidents. Cycling scares me, but my knees don't allow me to even think of doing it. Lost a good friend/training partner to a biking vs car accident, years ago.

3 runs this week for 16 miles total;

Sun - 6 miles ez.

Tues - Averaged 87 for 7x400, with 60 sec rec., and a 200 in 35.8. Would have done another 200, but felt a slight quad strain on the 1st 200.

Thurs- 5 mi @ 8:40 down to 8 min pace.

IT band still seems to be slowly improving, so will attempt to race a 2 mile road race, with a 900 meter hill, in 2 weeks.

Good speed to all!

Very impressed Old Guy. As you know I have been keeping an eye on your training on strava. I was curious to see if it could produce some decent race results. Great effort.

Not Buying It wrote:

Cavorty wrote:

You could certainly see Bernard Lagat matching Whiteman's 4:10 mile at 45 in 3 or 4 years time.

Maybe, but even Lagat has shown significant decline from his 1500 PB of 3:26.34 in 2001 to his most recent time of 3:41.87 in 2015.

3:26.34 2001 (age 26)

3:41.87 2015 (age 40)

(~7%)

On his profile you can see the linear drop in performance starting in his mid-30s:

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/united-states/bernard-lagat-135263

If I am not mistaken, Lagat had a cold (or some other sort of minor ailment) on the day he ran that 1500m. (The only 1500m he ran in 2015.) Based on his times over other distances from 2015, he probably could have run faster under better conditions.

I don't know what his future plans are, but I hope he comes back to track in 2020, and break some M45 World Records.

My week.

M: swimming, 1000m.

T: 4 miles / 7 miles.

W: 9 miles. (6th-8th miles @ 7:53-7:47-7:41)

R: 4 miles/ 7 miles.

F: 7 miles.

SA: 7 miles.

SU: 16 miles.

It was too hot (and humid) yesterday, so I moved my long run to a treadmill. Hopefully, I can run outdoor on the next weekend.

Lagat has a listed 3.54 indoor mile as a master and I think a 27.40 10000 metre time.

August 21

Monday

- Hip stretches

- Basic stretching routine

- 100 pushups, 50 situps, 30 dumbell curls each arm (20 lbs)

August 22

Tuesday

5 miles on the treadmill, 2% incline, at 9:16 mile pace.

Hot and humid here in Atlanta, even in the hotel's fitness room. This workout took way more effort than you would think from the numbers. My t-shirt was soaked and I was dripping with obscene amounts of sweat.

Followed by free drinks and munchies in the hotel bar which made everything better.

I visited my son several times when he was a GA at GA Tech. It is southern humidity. Two showers a day, running or not.

Igy

I haven't posted anything in a while but I have been slowly coming back from a torn patellar tendon. I think it was from badminton not running.

My training has consisted of using a Cybex Arc Trainer, an Octane Fitness Zero runner and running as much possible without my knee hurting. So far this year I have run about half as many miles as I ran last year. I have trained a lot more hours. I was doing at least 90 minutes elliptical training daily and in the last two months I have managed to work up to an hour of cross training a day and an hour of running a day. I have been able to do a weekly interval session and a tempo run for about the last 6 weeks. No elliptical training on those days.

I have done a bit of racing but Sunday was my first real attempt at a 5 race this year. The marshalls sent me the wrong way less than a kilometer from the finish line, resulting in me and the kid in front of me having to run an additional 500 meters, so my final time of 20:12 is not indicative of what I actually ran. My garmin showed a 5k split of 18:22. At 53 this age grades me to 82 percent which is my best age grading ever. I wish I had managed to stay on course and get an official fast time but what can you do.

So, at this point I am prepared to say, if you can devote large amounts of time to cross training and supplement with enough running you can run fast times at least for a 5k.

You are there, keep it going. If I didn't substitute cross training for recovery days I would not still be in the sport. My preference for cross training is swimming and spin bike.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I visited my son several times when he was a GA at GA Tech. It is southern humidity. Two showers a day, running or not.

Igy

Very funny.

Found out today that my heel pain is from a heel spur piece that that actually broke off from the spur. Very rare, per my podiatrist. He injected a small amount of cortisone, to get the swelling down from around the area, which was the primary cause of the pain (the swelling/inflammation, that is). No surgery, just slow return to running. None today, none tomorrow, gradual build-up, will be a VERY slow 5 km run on Saturday that I'd signed up for.

Socal Cush: "so in honor of ghost, i thought i’d get igy with it today. typically sunday is a dedicated long run for me, but i did 10.5 saturday with my h.s. team, so instead of o.d.-ing on lsd, i got on the track and did a classic igloi/douglas santa monica track club workout:

7 laps warmup, 10x100 (2 easy/1 good);

4x150 with 50m jog (1 medium/1 good);

6x200 goodspeed with 100m jog recovery;

6x250 goodswing with 150m jog recovery;

6x200 goodspeed with 100m jog recovery;

4x150 with 50m jog (1 medium/1 good);

10x100 easy.

400m jog in between sets, and constant motion/active recovery the whole workout—from the first 150 to the last 150, you do NOT stop. add up the mileage if you want; although i can guess, i prefer not to calculate myself. when i did a similar (and lengthier) workout like this with joe douglas, nothing was timed, and it was all by feel; however, the further removed i am from peak fitness, the more i need benchmarks, and lately i’ve been feeling weak of mind, body, and spirit, so i time the 200s cumulatively and discipline myself not to look at the time until the workout is done (this way i won’t try to set unrealistic expectations or force the workout). the first set of 200s added up to 3:31, the second set of 200s added up to 3:35, both 10+ seconds faster mile-pace-wise than what i did a month ago when i was only able to do sets of 4, without the final set of 150s.

in case anyone is wondering, i have no idea what this workout indicates, other than i know it helps advance fitness more quickly than any other single workout that i can think of. it’s not a workout that you can do on a weekly basis either; it’ll really beat you up. but with the flint mile looming, i hope it’ll pay dividends"

Thanks Cush for reminding me of good times at the Santa Monica College track. I was fortunate enough to run with Coach Mihaly Igloi 1967-1970 and Coach Joe Douglas 1972-1975.

This morning I did my own version of Igloi/Douglas interval training. I used it quite a bit in early season track base building as a coach. And I have found it useful lately. Why, I think because the focus is on form and effort, and not on the watch. The speeds both coaches used was fresh, good, and hard (tempo, interval or repetition Daniels' equivalents). The tempos (stride cadence) were speed and swing, as in "good speed" or "good swing." "Speed" emphasized short quick strides, "swing" saw lower knee drive and longer slower stride. So, in a training session the athlete not only experienced varying speeds but cadences.

Of the two coaches Igloi was more focused on form, which also included arm carriage and body angle at drive phase. Joe Douglas on the other hand made use of more typical tempo training which was not an element in Igloi's system. One Douglas SMTC workout I recall, that was on the long side, but typical in structure in my marathon training was: 2 mile warm-up with strides;

30:00 fresh on the roads (estimated 5:15-6:00 per mile); 4 x (10 x 440 yards alternating sets of good speed and good swing) / 220 yards between 440s and 440 between sets (estimated pace on the on the 440s was about 70-75); 20:00 fresh on the roads (5:15-6:00 per mile); mile cool-down including strides. This particular training session started at about 5:30 PM and finished around 8:00 pm. I cannot recall the exact morning sessions but it was typically another 6-7 miles of intervals, sandwiched between a shorter warm-up and cool-down of about a mile. The track intervals were run on the grass inside of the track so shorter than the actual distance. I would imagine that day I ran close to 30 miles morning and afternoon.

At the time both Joe and I worked full-time. Joe as a math teacher at Westchester High School and I as a contract analyst at Northrop Aircraft. Mihaly Igloi was a teacher at Loyola High School before he left to be National Track Coach of Greece in August of 1970. These coaches were at the track consistently 5:30 AM Monday-Friday, 5:30 PM Monday-Friday, Saturday 7:00 am and 4:30 PM, and Sunday 9:00 AM. We were off Easter, Christmas and two weeks at the end of August. Typically we had a time trial New Year's Day of 1320 yard followed by a flat out 440 yards. Nice huh!

I leave for others to discern the physiological benefits or merits of such training. Seems to work.

Igy

Looking at the results from some races long ago, when I was at my peak, reminded me of how much the whole complexion of road racing has changed over the past 25-30 years with the huge influx of walker/jogger "participants". I ran the 1991 Subaru Buffalo Chase, which was what I'd call a major local race. I think it had a small amount of prize money and it drew many of the top local runners from the Buffalo/Rochester/greater Toronto area. Out of 1271 finishers, I placed 97th overall (11th female) in 23:11, or 5:48 per mile. To make the top 10% of the race, you had to run 23:50, or 5:58 per mile.

Fast forward to my current local running scene. We have a "big" local 5K in December that has a small amount of prize money and drew 1559 finishers last year. I placed 105th overall (top 7%) in 23:28, or 7:34 per mile. The 5:48 pace that I ran back in 1991 would have been good for third place overall, nearly two and a half minutes ahead of the second place female.

I don't think it's a bad thing to have a large number of walkers and slow joggers entering races now. Their entry fees support a lot of events and they provide lots of bodies for old, slow ex-runners like me to beat. But it is different.

amkelley wrote:

I ran the 1991 Subaru Buffalo Chase ... Out of 1271 finishers, I placed 97th overall (11th female) in 23:11, or 5:48 per mile. To make the top 10% of the race, you had to run 23:50, or 5:58 per mile.

That's still a pretty competitive race:

But I know what you mean. Since you mentioned Buffalo, just look at their local race schedule ... a dozen road races on a summer weekend?! The competitive runners must be spread very thin. Even with all the "participation runners," some of those races only drew a few dozen folks.

amkelly, your 1991 time would have place 47th this year. I didn't look closely at the results until just now. So, even a very competitive race looks week compared to 25 years ago! Look at how many marathons your PR would outright win these days (our PRs are nearly identical, so I have noticed this!)

*amkelley. *weak. I need to hire a new editor.