50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

@Cavorty

First I do enjoy reading your posts as we are in similiar boats;)

You asked:

What kind of pace are you doing your 3x5 minutes at, would they be a fair bit quicker than my LT runs?

Not sure of pace because I do them on the treadmill using a combination of incline and mph. I actually change these setting during the 5 minutes but keep the effort about the same. For example Thursday on my first one I was doing 9.6 mph at 4 percent grade then 10 at 2 percent and finally the last 2 minutes at 0 percent grade and 10.4mph. The other 2 gradually got ezr but I KNOW what vo2max feels like. I am working on getting my LT yes JDs version below 6 minutes a mile and am getting close but right now guessitmate it at 6:10.

Here is the deal. JD bases his paces on experiments where he MEASURED lactate levels and discovered the LT turnpoint EUREKA! Also someone figured out that at some point we reach a point where we can no longer consume more oxygen and Vo2Max was born a short time later velocity at Vo2Max popped out. Now runners love their numbers they like analysis and logs ect. Pace HR weight weather course ect ect ect. HOWEVER the reality is if there was a real time device that measured LT levels and your current percent of max oxygen comsumption you would be using them because they would be exactly right. You would find that on any given day based upon how your feel and the weather and how much you want your Vo2Max pace to be 80 seconds per 400 you force the paces and do not listen to your body. I know what my LT effort is as well as my Vo2Max effort I CAN FEEL THESE THINGS. Sometimes I go over but not big deal I just slow down which also breaks one of those stupid artificial twisted up rules. Finally when the clock says you are slow you feel bad or try too hard to hit your paces. Now eventually you gotta do pace work like KP does but that is late in the game and the aerobic engine is already revved up and ready to burn. So there ya go!

Coach X wrote:

Charlie wrote:

My approach to vo2max has evolved into accumulating time at vo2max effort

with TIME at vo2max being more important than PACE. With SHORT recoveries.

I guess I don't understand what your saying since VO2max effort is necessarily pace dependent (aka vVO2max).

Hey Coach X most of my reply is in my last post. Velocity at Vo2Max will vary for example what if you are going up or down a steep hill? Your velocity at Vo2Max depends on lots of things. Teach runners how to feel their LT and their Vo2Max and toss that evil watch until you enter the final phase(s) of training.

Hey Igy did you do the 5k?

Charlie,

I think one of my better races this go round. I won the overall 5k in 23:44. I was 11:30 half-way on the out and back course. KP's devil got in my head the 4th kilometer, but finished well the last 400m. The distance is accurate, and 1:30 better than my best the last two years.

On training, I am on board with your thoughts. I am running less volume but faster. I need to continue to crank up the pace on the faster and longer intervals. They hurt so one needs focus.

Igy

Not Buying It wrote:

"1:53 or better age 50?" C'mon man...this is getting ridiculous with some of these guys.

I am just enjoying the show.

Who knows.

I am just amazed he is on the slowest decline of performance I have seen and no injuries.

Not Buying It wrote:

"1:53 or better age 50?" C'mon man...this is getting ridiculous with some of these guys.

Well, he hasn't done it yet.

Have to remember that he was a 1:45.8 800m runner, and 3:32/3:51 1500m/mile runner.

There aren't a whole lot of 3:32 1500m guys who kept training at a high-level at 45.

You could certainly see Bernard Lagat matching Whiteman's 4:10 mile at 45 in 3 or 4 years time.

Charlie wrote:

Coach X wrote:

I guess I don't understand what your saying since VO2max effort is necessarily pace dependent (aka vVO2max).

Hey Coach X most of my reply is in my last post. Velocity at Vo2Max will vary for example what if you are going up or down a steep hill? Your velocity at Vo2Max depends on lots of things. Teach runners how to feel their LT and their Vo2Max and toss that evil watch until you enter the final phase(s) of training.

My apologies as apparently I misunderstood your goal. I thought you were talking about improving VO2max, not LT (though they are obviously related).

VO2max improvement comes from training at 100-102% vVO2max which is a very small range and very much pace dependent. I would never have these workouts done without a stopwatch, nor would they be done on a course involving any sort of incline.

Thanks for your insight and understanding.

Saturday

August 19, 2017

- Hip stretches

- Basic stretching routine

- Back stretching routine

- 50 pushups, 50 situps, 30 dumbell curls each arm (20 lbs), 30 lat pulldowns (85 lbs), 30 wrist curls (30 lbs barbell)

- 1 mile elliptical

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Saturday

August 19, 2017

- Hip stretches

- Basic stretching routine

- Back stretching routine

- 50 pushups, 50 situps, 30 dumbell curls each arm (20 lbs), 30 lat pulldowns (85 lbs), 30 wrist curls (30 lbs barbell)

- 1 mile elliptical

U R KILLING ME LOL

*************************

Week 324

*************************

Greetings, 50+ers! Whew! So much going on that I can't keep up. Lots of training theory/types of activity/results, well done! I really don't have much to contribute this week. I gave it a go Tuesday, but the knee got pretty stiff afterwards, and given how hot and humid it's been, coupled with the start of the semester, running has not been a priority. My FitBit says I've gotten a fair amount of activity, but it's not been of the running variety, just a lot of scuffling about during this busy first week. My range of motion is returning to the knee with each passing day as I do some mobility exercises, but I really haven't wanted to risk a backward slide by running given what I'm doing later today and tomorrow.....this eclipse event is getting real! Our community college has a team that is part of a national NASA effort to launch weather balloons with scientific equipment and streaming cameras to make measurements and also live-stream the eclipse coast-to-coast.

https://eclipse2017.nasa.gov/eclipse-live-stream

Lexington will only see 95% coverage, so a couple of my colleagues along with their students will be heading over to Western part of the state to do the balloon launch from one of our sister Community Colleges. We leave later this morning. It'll be exciting, although I am dreading the drive.....I fear the worst. Wish us luck!

OK, I've got to get going; too much to do this morning! Hope things are on the upswing for those that have been ailing, and props to all you getting out there and beating back at Father Time!

All the Best!

Cavorty wrote:

Well, he hasn't done it yet.

Valid point.

Cavorty wrote:

There aren't a whole lot of 3:32 1500m guys who kept training at a high-level at 45.

No, but many elites running 3:32's or faster who have kept training hard into their mid to late 30s have experienced normal age-related declines prompting most to retire from pro status. Age-related decline in endurance sports starts in the mid to late 30s:

Cavorty wrote:

You could certainly see Bernard Lagat matching Whiteman's 4:10 mile at 45 in 3 or 4 years time.

Maybe, but even Lagat has shown significant decline from his 1500 PB of 3:26.34 in 2001 to his most recent time of 3:41.87 in 2015.

3:26.34 2001 (age 26)

3:41.87 2015 (age 40)

(~7%)

On his profile you can see the linear drop in performance starting in his mid-30s:

You can also look at Johnny Gray's 800 PB of 1:42.60 in 1988 (age 25) to his last 800 of 1:52 in 2000 (age 40), with a similar linear decline starting around mid-30s.

So, elites start declining significantly in performance around mid to late 30s (who would have thought?).

Mon. 45 min. kayak session and 8.2 km easy hilly trail run in 52 min.

Tue. 31 km muddy hilly mountain bike ride 1 hr 47 min.

Wed. 12 km very rugged run through the hills 400 metres elevation gain 1 hr 24 min.

Thu. 21.5 km mountain bike ride in 1 hr.

Sat. 8.5 km rugged trail run 350 metres elevation gain 1 hr 4 min.

Sun. 12.3 km very rugged trail run in 1 hr 24 min.

Continuing a relaxed approach building the running fitness back.

The kayak and bike missed out late in the week as I had an Irish buddy visiting.

The legs continued to be a bit weary, so I backed off a bit this week.

Sun: golf (walk9), 49

Mon: 43' jog

Tues: golf (walk2), triple bogey & par, driving range

Wed: 43' jog

Thu: off

Fri: golf (walk9/ride9), 95

Sat: 53' jog, body wt ex

Best to all!

Well, this was going to be an easy week but turned disastrous. Friday morning I was out for an easy 20 mile ride. Eight miles in, I came to a roundabout which was backed up with rush hour traffic so I rode up on the sidewalk to go around traffic. Well, you know what's coming. I misjudged a turn when I looked back to clear traffic and my handlebar brushed against a sign post. Down I went, really off balance. I face planted on the right side, really scuffing up the side of my face. But worst, I somehow hit my left elbow too and shattered a bone. All day in the hospital with surgery to put in a metal plate and 6-8 screws. So, I'll be out for a while.

I guess the only positive is no leg injuries.

I had a very satisfactory first race of our XC series yesterday. I ran 21:27 for 5k, which was 34 seconds faster than I ran on the same course in 2016. That was good enough for 1st in 65-69s and 3rd in the 60-69s (the series points are scored in 10 year age groups). More importantly, last year I had to take two days off after the race due to knee and calf strain problems. This morning I went out and walked 7 miles with nothing more than normal post-race fatigue. My get injury-free training plan seems to be working. Now I just need to get on Charlie's and Cavorty's program of building more time at VO2 max effort while staying injury-free. I had some minor left achilles soreness and left Soleus soreness at the beginning of the week so I took two off days during the week which left me at 37 miles for the week.

M- 7mi walk barefoot on the beach

T- 7mi walk hills

W- off

Th- 7mi walk hills

F- off

S- 9mi - 2.5mi warm up, 5K XC 21:27, 3.5mi warm down

Su- 7mi walk barefoot on the beach

Good running and racing to all!

You can also look at Johnny Gray's 800 PB of 1:42.60 in 1988 (age 25) to his last 800 of 1:52 in 2000 (age 40), with a similar linear decline starting around mid-30s

So, elites start declining significantly in performance around mid to late 30s (who would have thought?).[/quote]

Actually Gray was much faster than Whiteman at age 39. 1:45.38 to Whiteman's1:49.29.

If not for an injury Gray could have run that at age 40; 2 second decline in a decade.

Injury is the spoiler as even these elites have issues with the training after age 40.

Whiteman is as consistent as one can be season after season with no apparent injury! Even .5 slow down each season over next 5, would be a 1:52.36. I'd bet on it. I just wonder how he can train at such a level.

Reno - sorry to hear about your accident. Now we're both held together with plates and screws. Hope you recover quickly and get your cast off faster than I will.

I got my handicapped placard in the mail on Friday. It's been quite a shock to my self-image to go from an athlete to "disabled" overnight. But I'm fighting to maintain some semblance of fitness by doing my workouts on my new arm cycle (15 miles this am) and using You-tube exercise videos for people with leg injuries. I can get my HR up with the arm cycle and my core/hips get a good workout with the videos so maybe I won't be a total blob when I can walk again.

I'm sending good thoughts to all of you racing on the new course in Flint on Friday. I wish I could be with you - please post some race reports for me next week!

@Reno totally sucks but could have been worse plus you did get in an excellent 1500 and can build towards next year.

only one run this week instead of 2. Bumped the 2nd run from today to an outdoors lt run tomorrow during the eclipse maybe run naked maybe not.

Thursday

Warmup 2 miles 7:30/6:53 HR 146

Vo2 mixed it up treadmill total of 15 minutes 3x5 with 1 minute rest HR 168,169,168

old guy II,

Great racing. We have a couple of cross country races, but mostly geared for younger folks. Fortunately we have a half a dozen fall road races where the competition and weather are good. I just need to get out there and race.

Igy