Karissa Schweizzer Outkicks Shelby Houlihan for 8:25 AMERICAN RECORD as they and Quigley break old American record

The hidden agenda wrote:

YMMV wrote:

It is worthwhile to note that Schweizer's main rival in NCAA was....Elle Purrier. They are the new Shannon v. Jenny.

They ran pretty close in their last two years of cross country. They only raced four times, twice at Nationals and twice at the Adidas Pre-Nationals. Schweizer beat Purrier both years at Nationals. The year Schweizer won, Purrier was 15 seconds back; the next year, she was 6 seconds back. They split at Pre-Nationals, finishing within a second or so of each other; Schweizer finished second the year Purrier won.

On the track, weren't rivals since they never raced. Schweizer won 5 NCAA titles on the track and one in cross country. Purrier won one title on the track.

They don't have to race often to be at a similar level and therefore rivals. Elle's coach kept her in the steeple Elle is generally better at 1500/1609, and Schweizer 3K +. We'll have to see whether Elle goes with the 1500 or 5K this summer.

Purrier 1500:

2019 4:02.34 Stadio Olimpico, Roma (ITA) 06 JUN 2019

2018 4:07.79 Lignano Sabbiadoro (ITA) 11 JUL 2018

2017 4:14.48 Williamsburg, VA (USA) 31 MAR 2017

Schweizer 1500:

2019 4:08.51 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 16 MAY 2019

2018 4:06.77 Kortrijk (BEL) 14 JUL 2018

2017 4:15.77 Tuscaloosa, AL (USA) 08 APR 2017

KeepItReal wrote:

American Record conditions were made possible due to 1 simple fact most of you are forgetting - the new Nike carbon fiber plate spikes. They're all wearing them.

I don't know what the performance gains are in the new spikes but let's call it 2%. That's 1.2 seconds/min. In an 8 min long race, that's 9.6 seconds. For an 8:25 second race the 3K performances are 10 seconds faster. Are they in 8:35 shape? Probably. Did they run 8:25? Yep.

Quigley wore standard issue Bowerman color Mambas and ran 8:28. So..... no.

Improver of improvements wrote:

So it would be like a guy who had a PR of 9:30 for 3200 in high school running 7:29 for 3000 at 23 years old to break the American record. It is funny that a 9:30 won't get you a walk-on spot on most D1 teams.

That sounds about right. I can't really think of any men who had comparable rates of improvement. The closest I can think of is Eric Jenkins, who improved from ~9:20 in the 3200 (don't know his exact PR) to 7:38 in the 3k.

Just checked the video I took at the meet, there's a chance Quigley was wearing Mamba's but the new Nike spikes are in 'disguise', so unless we looked we wouldn't know for sure. Most were wearing new Tech. But you miss my point. Put all the world class runners in the same spikes at BU and our American Records finishes 5th or 6th if we're lucky, and there's a new WR of 8:15 or better.

Not really sure why this race or these runners deserve any negativity. These were three incredible performances.

Just realize we're in the age of technology. The best athletes with the best tech will break records. The next 12 months will be just like swimming. The untouchable records are very much at risk.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Some of us are agog over these performances. But perhaps not for the same reason you are.

You might have a point here if you had a reason to believe I don't find these performances suspicious or, more to the point, if drugs were some brand-new factor in the sport. The others before me didn't say anything about drugs -- they were panning the performances for bitchy reasons.

The fact is that this is an unprecedented result. Three Americans under 8:30 in one race, indoors or out, is amazing. Other possible dopers have had plenty of cracks at these times.

Most people on the boards get that the sport is awash in chemicals. To constantly mention it goes beyond a reality check into needless shouting. Then again, that's the board's whole function, so

BUUUUUUUUUUUUURrrrr- - -...

Ah, couldn't close that time.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

And who has done that?

“former Iowa great” is showing a bit of a lack of math or critical thinking skills with his oversimplified conversion.

Armstronglivs doesn’t seem t year previously. o realize Schweizer left Mizzou just 1.5 years ago and is seeing a similar massive improvement as Houlihan did in her first few years as a pro.

Also, I’m not sure Armstronglivs understands the concept of “good days” and “bad days” for individual runners (though I’d argue none of them had a bad day).

8.41 was a good day. 8.25 was also a good day. Schweizer only has good days, it seems. (Houlihan's 3.54 at the wc last year has to qualify as a good day, especially for a runner who had only just broken 4min a year previously. The men should be envious of the spectacular gains some of the women have been achieving).

The expected differential between a runner's best 1500 time and their 3k time is about 15secs for each 1500. The numerical splits for Schweizer's 3k is 4.12xx for each 1500. That suggests she should be capable of around 3.57 for the 1500 (which is about right, since she beat a 3.55 runner). Her current best is 4.06 (and 4 27 for the mile). It's difficult to believe that good tracks and shoes fully explain that level of improvement.

Schweizer is not going to run that fast in the 1500m. Gidey or Ayana have no 1500m marks worth anything and have run 8:20-22.

I think one really has to distinguish.

Houlihan has done very well but not exceeded expectations wildly. Her huge improvement was 2017-18 (and one can be suspicious because of this). But within her 2018 marks (3:57 and 14:34, so one can bracket the exceptional Doha fina) 8:26 is good but not out of line. Sonia O'Sullivan was slower in the 1500/5k and ran 8:22 with mid-1990s shoes and tracks.

Schweizer's is a completely different level of improvement. Her 8:25 is roughly equivalent to 14:30 5k, so comparable to Koko's performance yesterday and look up how they compared in Doha or at Prefontaine.

Quigley was also considerably better than one would expect a 4:03 athlete to do (about 5-7 secs better) but she runs so rarely fast 3k/5k in good conditions that there are no good points for comparison

Armstronglivs wrote:

The expected differential between a runner's best 1500 time and their 3k time is about 15secs for each 1500. The numerical splits for Schweizer's 3k is 4.12xx for each 1500. That suggests she should be capable of around 3.57 for the 1500 (which is about right, since she beat a 3.55 runner). Her current best is 4.06 (and 4 27 for the mile).

That's for a 1500m runner, not a 5k/10k type. Even O'Sullivan had about 12 secs. (3:58.85 8:21.64, Radcliffe had 4:05 8:22, barely 6 seconds, but she was marathoner. Laura Weightman improved to a strong 8:26 at Prefontaine and has 4:00 14:44, 13 seconds. So I'd expect Schweizer to run about 4:00-02 in summer rather than 3:57.

This doesn't change the fact that her 3000m improvement was extraordinary.

former Iowa great wrote:

Most of you probably dont realize how much she has improved over the past 6 years. Her senior year in HS, she finished only 3rd in her state at Drake Relays running 10:03 and getting crushed by Stephanie Jenks who ran 9:26. So she went from somebody who would get lapped by another high school girl in Iowa in an indoor 3000, to running the American record 1:38 seconds faster. This would be the same as a 23 year old guy (yes she is only the age of some college runners) running 7:30 who had only run about 10 flat for 3200 in high school.

Do they offer maths courses in Iowa?

For one thing, to say "So and so was once much slower so this rate of improvement should translate neatly to other runners at the same level" is poppycock. Noah Droddy's college PR for 3,000 is slower than the times three Bowerman women managed. Should he be deemed incapable of the times he's since run? A lot of great runners were rubbish in high school and even beyond.

For another, if you're going to solve pointless maths problems, solve them correctly! Schweitzer has improved a little over 15 per cent since high school (the "10 oh" in fer Drake Relays time makes this easy). So take the equivalent lad at the 7:30 to 7:35 level and having made a 15% jump since high school and you find he was an 8:50-8:55 guy (9:30-9:35 for 3200m).

It's not like people are making these jumps in a single race. Even though you people type phrases like "six years ago," it's unclear how many of the skeptics are actually attuned to basic concepts like the passage of chronological time outside race environments.

{brrrrp.}

KeepItReal wrote:

Just checked the video I took at the meet, there's a chance Quigley was wearing Mamba's but the new Nike spikes are in 'disguise', so unless we looked we wouldn't know for sure. Most were wearing new Tech. But you miss my point. Put all the world class runners in the same spikes at BU and our American Records finishes 5th or 6th if we're lucky, and there's a new WR of 8:15 or better.

Why would she wear them "in disguise" when other athletes are so plainly wearing them? Quiqley has raced in the Mambas all season and Houlihan has raced in Zoom Victories the whole season, at least accordingly to all the available pictures.

Any video of race?

Jo72 wrote:

Schweizer's is a completely different level of improvement.

Here's an interesting fact that I'm not sure what to do with. Both Schweizer's and Houlihan's two fastest laps last week were faster than their fastest laps this week. The difference was especially striking for Houlihan. Her two fastest laps last week were both faster than her fastest lap this week. I originally thought Houlihan's inability to hold off Schweizer last night showed her inability to kick off of a fast pace. Now I wonder how much of was due to her being tired after kicking hard at altitude last week.

I can't wait to see how Schweizer and Purrier do out in the real world.

The hidden agenda wrote:

Here's an interesting fact that I'm not sure what to do with. Both Schweizer's and Houlihan's two fastest laps last week were faster than their fastest laps this week. The difference was especially striking for Houlihan. Her two fastest laps last week were both faster than her fastest lap this week. I originally thought Houlihan's inability to hold off Schweizer last night showed her inability to kick off of a fast pace. Now I wonder how much of was due to her being tired after kicking hard at altitude last week.

I can't wait to see how Schweizer and Purrier do out in the real world.

USAs were two weeks ago, plenty of time to recover. Unless they ran another race last week at altitude that I didn't notice.

Also what do you mean by "real world"? Millrose isn't the real world? Or do you mean outdoors?

still here? wrote:

I had thought Krause’s ceiling was 9:15ish, but she recently broke out with a 9:07 and beat Coburn in the process. I agree her foot speed is lacking. I also think she’s too shy of going out with the leaders and prefers to finish strong. Even in her 9:07 she overhauled 3 or 4 runners in the final 600. Kinda like Ritz did when he set the 5k AR.

Krause is an aerobic monster without much sprint speed. She can have a decent long kick, over 400-600m since she is so strong aerobically she can access the speed she has in the end.

She starts races within her means, she knows that Chepkoech is far above her and that going out with her like other women are frequently doing is stupid. The other women often have to pay for going out too hard in races, when Krause passes them (Doha, etc).

Also she ran 9:03 already in Doha. Krause is a beast.

I'm not sure whether you want to go down the route of drawing comparisons with an Ethiopian. But I guess we are talking about "African-level" of improvement here.