World records get massacred on the track all year and it's the DOPE
World records get massacred on the roads all year and it's the SHOES
One of these is proven to work, the other is for fooling people who failed high school physics.
Correlation: fast runners wearing a particular brand of shoe. Causation? Or could it be the company that sponsors the most fast runners wants them to advertise it? They're wearing it because they're fast, not vice versa.
doctorj wrote:
FoolingYourselves wrote:
Again, just my opinion. But I can sleep well at night knowing that I actually earned my PR instead of buying it for the price of $250 then bragging about it to my friends. You really have no freaking clue.
My clue dates since April 30 1975 when I began a runner. You seen to miss the biggest clue of all, and I will spell it for you:
Y O U...S T I L L... H A V E ...TO ... TRAIN... H A R D!!!!
Or you think the times come In magically without putting in the hours? If so...Do you still believe in Santa?
This guy is obsessed with me. I exist, so everybody shut up and let me bring y'all wrapped Vaporflys.
runnerdave wrote:
Go to about 17:00 in the video and watch the antics of the male pacers for the lead women, especially the woman that came in second. These goofballs (not talking about the women, obviously) should've been yanked off the course. I do think that in a women's race, the male pacers should be pulled off the course by 40K, letting the women battle it out alone. Is there any rule that was being broken here? Yuck.
If the race was an open race in that the men and women started at the same time then no, the elite men running among the elite women should not be pulled off the course. They have every right to be there as the race is being organized as open race. If the races were organized as separate races in which the women started at a separate time then that would be another matter.
Baltsu wrote:
and nobody is complaining that Mondo track should be banned.
Sorry, but Mondo tracks should absolutely be banned. Re-introducing cinder tracks as the regulation track surface will also create more employment opportunities due to the maintenance required.
As a comparison..... A couple of years ago I ran Valencia in pretty much ideal conditions. My time which then was good enough for 67th place would only have got me 181st place yesterday. Historically pre-Olympic years seem to produce deeper results as people chase qualifier or trials times, but I doubt that would explain such a significant difference.
FWIW I have a pair of Vaporfly and will quite happily use them to race when I'm able to do so again.
dunes runner wrote:
John Wesley Harding wrote:
I remember back in the day
Those were, and still are, the fastest shoes ever.
I sort of agree. I get that the carbon plate keeps your toes 'straight' and perhaps helps with 'efficiency' that way, but however effective the zoom x foam is, you are still 'losing' energy via the foam (i.e; it's not returning anywhere near 100% of energy applied, the plate therefore perhaps acts as a forward motion lever, but it's not really a spring). In bare feet (and sprinters spikes etc) you have no foam absorbing energy, but does it take more energy to absorb the strike impact in bare feet than that you would lose in a foam midsole? Not sure I've explained that very well....
The East African myth was just epo wrote:
I’m sure the shoes help a lot, but the main ingredient is still the epo.
It is like the Lance era where everyone thought his secret to success was high cadence or bike aerodynamics.
Exactly
rojo wrote:
He’s one of the GOATs of all time
A "GOATSOAT" ?
rojo wrote:
I'll be happy to stand corrected and looking like a fool fot not looking up the pictures of the shoes.
Really? We know you looked at exactly who ran in what before you posted. You are trying to emphasise and exaggerate a correlation
If people didn't know you are an owner of the site, and apparently a 'journalist' they would think you are trolling.
No wonder the majority of threads are infantile
doctorj wrote:
My clue dates since April 30 1975 when I began a runner. You seen to miss the biggest clue of all, and I will spell it for you:
Y O U...S T I L L... H A V E ...TO ... TRAIN... H A R D!!!!
Or you think the times come In magically without putting in the hours? If so...Do you still believe in Santa?
You're funny and make me laugh. You lecture about training hard, but the Vaporflys are used by people who want a shortcut and instant gratification instead of TRULY training hard to see what they're made of. I'm an older guy like you and have been at it almost as long...so your time frame doesn't impress me. But it does tell me that you like the Vaporflys because they're a new fountain of youth that make you feel somewhat relevant again...if you ever were. You probably picked up a pair on the way home from your testosterone shot at the anti-aging clinic after your doctor told you he needed to get you back to "normal levels" to even the playing field. Because that's the mindset cheaters have. Once they start to fall from the top of their game, they'll do whatever is necessary to stroke their ego and keep the attention on them.
I'm done with this argument. It's taking away time from training that I will used to crush guys like you on the track and XC course when you don't have your CheaterFly crutches to rely on. In the meantime, keep telling yourself whatever is necessary to feel better about your times.
Didn’t do your research? You? This site? Pat for the course. You’re either sensationalist trolls or a resource of information for this noche sport. These young Africans are now going mostly for the marathon and are training at a higher level than before. Valencia seems so be a fast course. However, let’s set all of that aside and post about the shoes. Yes, the shoes are great tech but do not discredit the ability and hard work behind these accomplishments.
When are cyclists going to stop using those G-D carbon fiber bikes with automatic shifters? Seems like a lot of mechanical advantages there...sheesh.
I've just got back from Valencia. I was out on the course spectating. My best guess was that 90-95% of sub 2h30 runners were wearing Nike, about 80-85% of sub 2h45 and approx 65+% of sub 3. Huge numbers of runners also slower than 3hours and even 4 hours.
Whatever you think of them, Nike have totally changed the game. €250 (c. $300) is about to become the new norm for a pair of running shoes. Other makes and models will creep up (even more than they have done already in the past few years) to match.
runjc wrote:
When are cyclists going to stop using those G-D carbon fiber bikes with automatic shifters? Seems like a lot of mechanical advantages there...sheesh.
UCI has rules about what a bike is...double diamond shape and entire bike has to be no less than 5.8kg. They can make bikes lighter that easily these days, and have for years, but the rules are in place for teams with smaller budgets. There are many other rules, but those are the two big ones that keep things "similar" enough.
The rest has to be allowed because it's bikes and equipment sponsors that allow the sport to exist. Cycling is just much more gear driven than many other sporting events.
JLandy wrote:
I think the faster times are partly attributed to simple belief. After Bannister broke 4, which at the time was considered human limits, it was broken frequently, 4 more time in the following year. the training didn't change nor did the shoes. It was belief. The shoes are faster, but the minds of the current runners have also evolved.
I've seen two posts to this effect. It's just not true. The reality is the world records stagnated because of WWII and coming back from that. Then people got back into athletics and all of the WRs started going down - mile, 5k, etc.
Read this piece to become educated:
https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister-effect-the-myth-of-the-psychological-breakthrough.html?v=7516fd43adaaMake the sport great again wrote:
Sorry, but Mondo tracks should absolutely be banned. Re-introducing cinder tracks as the regulation track surface will also create more employment opportunities due to the maintenance required.
1) Everyone has access to the Mondo tracks. Not everyone has access to these shoes.
2) The lack of access - particularly for the 2016 Olympic marathon - is why I think those results should be invalidated. Nike secretly invented the shoes, didn't release them in the market and then gave them to their favorite runners like Galen Rupp. The 4th placer wasn't wearing the shoes. Rupp and Kipchoge benefitted from Mechanical Doping.
3) I'm not 100% opposed to the shoes. I'm opposed to the rules not being enforced. The shoes in 2016 were illegal and nothing has been done about it. Also I want clarity for 2020. The IAAF needs to issue a statement immediately. If they want to say, "Any commercially available shoe as of January 1, 2010 is legal for 2020. Then say it."
People step on a line in the midst of a steeplechase and lose a medal but here you gain minutes from your shoes and the authorities look the other way.
I now go into a co-working space most days. I'm sitting here laughing my butt off reading some of these posts. The guy across from me is looking at me wondering what I'm reading. I loved the following two.
FoolingYourselves wrote:
I tried on a pair in the store to see what the hype was about. Didn't run in them. Didn't have to. On the very first step WALKING I could feel them springing me forward at the point of toe off. And I knew at that point I could never wear them with a clear conscience and any times I ran in them would be meaningless.
That cracked me up as did this.
ppioo wrote:
4% of the East African dominance is thanks to the Cheaterflys.
96% is thanks to unlimited doping.
East African countries need to be banned from the sport, just like Russia.
Very clever.
Free_the_thigh wrote:
Old man on porch wrote:
I think...I think...I think no one actually cares what you think. The shoes are super accessible. Not Nikes problem that the other companies are making inferior shoes. Time for other companies to step up, Nike isn’t making other athletes run for these companies. There is legit not reason the shoes shouldn’t be allowed at the olympics. If you are going to disallow these shoes then everyone should have to run in trainers.
Roller blades are also super accessible, but they shouldn’t be allowed.
The point of the plate is to act like a spring, which is why they should be banned.
No sane person can look at that curvature of the plate and not realize it is a spring (unless of course their ego requires them to think otherwise).
Frankly, I don’t think it even matters if the shoes in fact work. Running shoes shouldn’t have springs in them or mechanical devices designed to act like springs, whether or not they are effective.
Even if roller blades were slower, I would still think they should be banned from running races, and I’d be surprised to meet anyone who disagrees.
boing, boing...
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1007958930595565568/pu/vid/360x640/6Ohbn53rmY-O0p0Y.mp4rojo wrote:
JLandy wrote:
I think the faster times are partly attributed to simple belief. After Bannister broke 4, which at the time was considered human limits, it was broken frequently, 4 more time in the following year. the training didn't change nor did the shoes. It was belief. The shoes are faster, but the minds of the current runners have also evolved.
I've seen two posts to this effect. It's just not true. The reality is the world records stagnated because of WWII and coming back from that. Then people got back into athletics and all of the WRs started going down - mile, 5k, etc.
Read this piece to become educated:
https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister-effect-the-myth-of-the-psychological-breakthrough.html?v=7516fd43adaa
You are wrong rojo.
When did you start having marathons paced for 2:04? (don't give me the usual Steve Jones 61 crap)
You raced. You know you have good and bad days. Bunch of guys try to hang on, two or three do and they get the times.
The "if they can do it, why shouldn't I?" mentality is very real among athletes.
Interview Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes and you will see what I mean. And maybe become educated.
rojo wrote:
[quote]Make the sport great again wrote:
2) The lack of access - particularly for the 2016 Olympic marathon - is why I think those results should be invalidated. Nike secretly invented the shoes, didn't release them in the market and then gave them to their favorite runners like Galen Rupp. The 4th placer wasn't wearing the shoes. Rupp and Kipchoge benefitted from Mechanical Doping.
1) wtf are you talking about? literally everyone has access to vaporflys. just because some athletes signed contracts of their own volition that prohibits them from wearing them (i.e. nike shoes), does not mean that they don't have access.
2) it's not "particularly" in the 2016 marathon; it is"specifically". Do not conflate the two. This was an issue then, not now, and not at the valencia race. If anyone wants to break a WR wearing vaporflys they are 100% free too.
3) it is a prototype issue. Any athlete wearing prototypes should be in eligible for prizes/placements in IAAF/USATF races. So yes it was a problem at the 2016 trials and olympics. and currently its a problem for all non-nike athletes wearing prototype shoes.