You really need to take the blinders off and stop trying to defend the situation.
Public weigh ins for those uncomfortable with it is abuse. Is fat shaming not abuse? You have to know your athlete and how you can talk to them. If they perceive it as abuse then it is.
It does matter if it comes from a male or female if it affects the person. Clearly it did with Cain as she is suggesting that more women should have been involved and has mentioned the all male staff.
rojo wrote:
I just watched Cain on Good Morning America Today. I was struck how at the end of the story when they listed Nike's response they conveniently left out the part where Nike said she tried to rejoin the team.
And AlSal's response to Ken Goe:
In the written response sent late Thursday evening, Salazar says:
“Mary’s father is a medical doctor, and both of her parents were deeply involved in her training, competition and health throughout the period she was coached by me. For example, Mary’s father consulted on medications and supplements Mary used during her time at the NOP. Neither of her parents nor Mary raised any of the issues that she now suggests occurred while I was coaching her. To be clear, I never encouraged her, or worse yet, shamed her, to maintain an unhealthy weight.”
Salazar writes: “Mary at times struggled to find and maintain her ideal performance and training weight."
He said in those instances he consulted her father and referred Cain to a female doctor.
The doctor “would have been responsible for prescribing Mary with any medication, including birth control pills. And of course, as I have said many times before, I have never given, encouraged or suggested that any of my athletes take any banned substance, ever.”
He writes that contrary to Cain’s allegations, the Oregon Project team included both a nutritionist and a sports psychologist.
Cain contends she left Portland in 2015 and returned to her family home in New York, although she continued to train as a member of the Oregon Project through the 2016 U.S. Olympic Trials.
Salazar writes Cain traveled to Portland in April of this year and asked him to resume coaching her. He says he and Cain were in communication by email and text message as recently as July of this year. He says she asked his advice about training and recovery from injury in the emails and text message.
He enclosed a text message he says Cain sent to him in April that included this passage:
“Thanks again so much for a great trip -- I’m excited to be working together again and I really want this. Haha got back to a chilly morning in NY and even skipped class just to prioritize training and recovery since that’s my No. 1.”
rojo wrote:
automorphic wrote:
One of the biggest problems with the reaction here is that we expect victims to be heroes. The corollary of that is that if Cain (or Magness, Goucher, etc.) is not a hero, then she's not a victim. And so the discussion becomes a referendum on Cain, not on Salazar and the NOP.
It doesn't matter if Cain's a good person. Maybe she's a wonderful person; maybe she's a horrible person who just wants to get back at Salazar for not letting her rejoin NOP. (Obviously I would hope for the former.)
It doesn't really matter too much. What matters is that Salazar, by many different people and for many different reasons, has been accused of being a scumbag. Disbelieving this doesn't just require disbelieving Cain, but also Cam Levins, for instance, and many other people. And it requires another explanation for the weirdness that we've always known was there with Cain and the NOP.
If Mary Cain were the only person who has said something this negative about Salazar, then it would be her words against his, and it would be perfectly reasonable to question her motives and her character. But they're simply not relevant in a world where many others have said the same thing, and none of the accusations are inconsistent with who we already think Salazar is.
It's perfectly reasonable to say something like "Salazar's 4-year ban was too harsh given the relatively meager doping violations that USADA was able to prove". But to assert that Salazar isn't a major pox on the sport requires that you dismiss or disprove: the proven doping violations (and suspicion of more), the grey area behavior, the psychological manipulation of athletes including publicly berating them and focusing disproportionately on their weight, the hostility to the media, trying to get personal information of Letsrun posters, and intimidating rival athletes and coaches while playing politics with the rules of the sport (i.e. the Gabe Grunewald DQ).
In this ecosystem, the force isn't with any one accusation, but with the sum total of all of them. That's why it isn't about Mary Cain: it's about Alberto Salazar and the things that he's done.
FANTASTIC POST. I loved your talk about us expecting victims to be heroes.
I was talking to Weldon this morning and he was saying something similar about today's society. Someone is either the second coming or the devil, the greatest or the evilest when in reality it's more complicated than that but few are willing to admit that.
I just watched Cain on Good Morning America Today. I was struck how at the end of the story when they listed Nike's response they conveniently left out the part where Nike said she tried to rejoin the team. Does that totally discredit Cain's allegations? Not at all. But GMA didn't want to paint the full picture, they didn't want to deal with the messiness of life so they left that out and in my opinion that is journalism malpractice. It complicates the story of "Evil big company run by men abuses little girl" so it was left out.
Watch it for yourself.
https://twitter.com/GMA/status/1192793839884328960
Jesus that’s bad. How could you not include that?
Hateraid wrote:
I don't think he has the ability to have sympathy. That's the way he comes across to me.
Roughly half of Letsrun appears to be the same kind of person. We've got a story about a notorious a-hole and convicted drug cheat taking a naive young woman with once-in-a-generation talent under his wing and "mentoring" her until she self-harmed and dropped out of the sport completely, and people here manage to find a way to side with the obvious sociopath.
Hell knoweth no fury like a woman scorned.
The Gallant Pig Man wrote:
Hateraid wrote:
I don't think he has the ability to have sympathy. That's the way he comes across to me.
Roughly half of Letsrun appears to be the same kind of person. We've got a story about a notorious a-hole and convicted drug cheat taking a naive young woman with once-in-a-generation talent under his wing and "mentoring" her until she self-harmed and dropped out of the sport completely, and people here manage to find a way to side with the obvious sociopath.
So true. I think it's the autonomous part here though. People respond like jerks just because they think they should and it's funny to them.
Hateraid wrote:
You really need to take the blinders off and stop trying to defend the situation.
Public weigh ins for those uncomfortable with it is abuse. Is fat shaming not abuse? You have to know your athlete and how you can talk to them. If they perceive it as abuse then it is.
It does matter if it comes from a male or female if it affects the person. Clearly it did with Cain as she is suggesting that more women should have been involved and has mentioned the all male staff.
We need MORE fat shaming in this current society. 65% of Americans are considered "overweight".
As an aside, were she and her parents aware that her interactions would always be with an all male staff? I'm honestly asking.
More info. wrote:
Hateraid wrote:
You really need to take the blinders off and stop trying to defend the situation.
Public weigh ins for those uncomfortable with it is abuse. Is fat shaming not abuse? You have to know your athlete and how you can talk to them. If they perceive it as abuse then it is.
It does matter if it comes from a male or female if it affects the person. Clearly it did with Cain as she is suggesting that more women should have been involved and has mentioned the all male staff.
We need MORE fat shaming in this current society. 65% of Americans are considered "overweight".
As an aside, were she and her parents aware that her interactions would always be with an all male staff? I'm honestly asking.
LOL that's rough. I do think that somethings needs to be done about the US not sure what and that's not my job thankfully. Don't get me wrong I do think the parents have the shoulder some of the blame here. They sold their daughter to Alberto. In hindsight obviously her going to college would have been better (lets hope).
Some of the people that post on here are truly disgusting human beings. I should have known better than to even bother reading the threads on this topic. We have a sport that we all claim to love and yet this site attracts so many wretched, abhorrent individuals who truly do not care about other human beings or the safety and integrity of the sport.
This is certainly not true. NYT does not pay subjects for the contributions, ever. Op-Ed / Op-Doc, any of it.
Wowow wrote:
rojo wrote:
FANTASTIC POST. I loved your talk about us expecting victims to be heroes.
I was talking to Weldon this morning and he was saying something similar about today's society. Someone is either the second coming or the devil, the greatest or the evilest when in reality it's more complicated than that but few are willing to admit that.
I just watched Cain on Good Morning America Today. I was struck how at the end of the story when they listed Nike's response they conveniently left out the part where Nike said she tried to rejoin the team. Does that totally discredit Cain's allegations? Not at all. But GMA didn't want to paint the full picture, they didn't want to deal with the messiness of life so they left that out and in my opinion that is journalism malpractice. It complicates the story of "Evil big company run by men abuses little girl" so it was left out.
Watch it for yourself.
https://twitter.com/GMA/status/1192793839884328960Jesus that’s bad. How could you not include that?
GMA is just as trashy as any other mainstream media outlet/program. Just look up "GMA Desmond is Amazing" if you want to see a cross dressing 10 year old kid that they put on that show and celebrated. Actually, don't look that up because it is disturbing as hell.
So of course GMA is not going to give you an accurate story of the situation.
Hateraid wrote:
You really need to take the blinders off and stop trying to defend the situation.
Public weigh ins for those uncomfortable with it is abuse. Is fat shaming not abuse? You have to know your athlete and how you can talk to them. If they perceive it as abuse then it is.
It does matter if it comes from a male or female if it affects the person. Clearly it did with Cain as she is suggesting that more women should have been involved and has mentioned the all male staff.
I'm not defending the situation at all. Salazar almost certainly ruined a once-in-the-lifetime talent with his idiotic and antiquated notions about running and weight loss that almost destroyed a woman's life.
What he did was idiotic and irresponsible, but does it constitute as abuse? No.
280? You ain't watching the NFL, more like 3bills.
Hateraid wrote:
No time in the past decade has it been appropriate for a male coach of a female athlete to talk to them about their weight. This is not their place and can do a lot of harm. Many coaches have been fired for doing just that. A professional organization should have someone that is better at handling this. Broadcasting the weight that they wanted Cain to be at to the whole team is a form of abuse. Some don't see it as abuse because they can handle it, some can't. Telling her after a bad race that she gained 5 lbs is abuse.
Is it appropriate for a female coach to say the exact same things?
Mary's original story sure lost a lot of its credibility after finding out she was begging to join back up with NOP earlier this year. Shoots a ton of holes in her original story of breaking free from the abuse, etc... back in 2015. I agree with others on here too, her parents are strongly to blame for allowing this to occur as long as it did (if it truly was as bad as she described).
Overall this just sounds like a terrible mix of a girl who was way too young to go pro who also had a perfectionist attitude teaming up with a man who has a "win-at-all costs" mentality and no emotional attachment to the well-being of the athletes he coaches. Impossible for a mix like that to ever work. Alberto seems most suited to a coach a mindless male prodigy (rupp) or an already established world elite near the age of 30 (Mo, Rowbury, Hassan) who just needs "that little extra" to get to the top.
Let it Rupp wrote:
Hateraid wrote:
You really need to take the blinders off and stop trying to defend the situation.
Public weigh ins for those uncomfortable with it is abuse. Is fat shaming not abuse? You have to know your athlete and how you can talk to them. If they perceive it as abuse then it is.
It does matter if it comes from a male or female if it affects the person. Clearly it did with Cain as she is suggesting that more women should have been involved and has mentioned the all male staff.
I'm not defending the situation at all. Salazar almost certainly ruined a once-in-the-lifetime talent with his idiotic and antiquated notions about running and weight loss that almost destroyed a woman's life.
What he did was idiotic and irresponsible, but does it constitute as abuse? No.
So putting someone on a scale in front of everyone and telling them they are overweight is not abuse? Not allowing someone to eat is not abuse? OK I guess we just have different definitions.
Get over yourselves wrote:
Hateraid wrote:
No time in the past decade has it been appropriate for a male coach of a female athlete to talk to them about their weight. This is not their place and can do a lot of harm. Many coaches have been fired for doing just that. A professional organization should have someone that is better at handling this. Broadcasting the weight that they wanted Cain to be at to the whole team is a form of abuse. Some don't see it as abuse because they can handle it, some can't. Telling her after a bad race that she gained 5 lbs is abuse.
Is it appropriate for a female coach to say the exact same things?
Obviously not. But I do think it's much easier for a woman to talk to another woman about weight. Don't you?
Hateraid wrote:
Get over yourselves wrote:
Is it appropriate for a female coach to say the exact same things?
Obviously not. But I do think it's much easier for a woman to talk to another woman about weight. Don't you?
You either want to make it to the top of the heap or you don't. Simple as that. If that means "starving" yourself, then so beit. Make the decision or don't; but don't whine about it.
AlSal's response wrote:
rojo wrote:
I just watched Cain on Good Morning America Today. I was struck how at the end of the story when they listed Nike's response they conveniently left out the part where Nike said she tried to rejoin the team.
And AlSal's response to Ken Goe:
In the written response sent late Thursday evening, Salazar says:
“Mary’s father is a medical doctor, and both of her parents were deeply involved in her training, competition and health throughout the period she was coached by me. For example, Mary’s father consulted on medications and supplements Mary used during her time at the NOP. Neither of her parents nor Mary raised any of the issues that she now suggests occurred while I was coaching her. To be clear, I never encouraged her, or worse yet, shamed her, to maintain an unhealthy weight.”
Salazar writes: “Mary at times struggled to find and maintain her ideal performance and training weight."
He said in those instances he consulted her father and referred Cain to a female doctor.
The doctor “would have been responsible for prescribing Mary with any medication, including birth control pills. And of course, as I have said many times before, I have never given, encouraged or suggested that any of my athletes take any banned substance, ever.”
He writes that contrary to Cain’s allegations, the Oregon Project team included both a nutritionist and a sports psychologist.
Cain contends she left Portland in 2015 and returned to her family home in New York, although she continued to train as a member of the Oregon Project through the 2016 U.S. Olympic Trials.
Salazar writes Cain traveled to Portland in April of this year and asked him to resume coaching her. He says he and Cain were in communication by email and text message as recently as July of this year. He says she asked his advice about training and recovery from injury in the emails and text message.
He enclosed a text message he says Cain sent to him in April that included this passage:
“Thanks again so much for a great trip -- I’m excited to be working together again and I really want this. Haha got back to a chilly morning in NY and even skipped class just to prioritize training and recovery since that’s my No. 1.”
What needs to be understood is that there are ALWAYS 3 sides to a story: her side, his side, and the truth. A one sided argument is intellectually unacceptable.
On his way out wrote:
Hateraid wrote:
Obviously not. But I do think it's much easier for a woman to talk to another woman about weight. Don't you?
You either want to make it to the top of the heap or you don't. Simple as that. If that means "starving" yourself, then so beit. Make the decision or don't; but don't whine about it.
Yep and take drugs because that's the way to make it to the top. Don't whine about it that's just what you have to do.