Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/20/19

Cool. Appreciate the feedback from y'all

Coach Jeff - if you've never run in them before, I'd recommend one short run to make sure they feel OK and aren't defective, and then one tempo or marathon pace workout to see how you like them (do NOT judge these shoes based on how they feel during an easy run. For subsequent pairs, I go with just one easy run, and then race. I'm mostly likely cracking out a fresh pair of OG Vaporflies for Indy, and will just do a short easy run in them before hand. I would not race with them directly out of the box. I wouldn't do that with any shoe. You don't want to get a mile into your race and realize you have a defective pair. My first pair of Next%s that I bought were in fact defective. I took them out for an easy run of 3 miles that felt awful and painful. It turned out that a) while both shoes were marked size 6, they were obviously two different sizes when you placed them next to each other; and b) the upper of one shoe was obviously malformed if you looked at it closely. I returned them, and got a replacement pair which were perfectly fine. But a good reminder to never go with any shoe straight out of the box unless you're willing to accept that risk. [this is the second time I've gotten a bad pair of shoes - the first was when I was a hobby jogger about a decade ago. Bought a pair of Adidas Supernova Classics, and the heel cup on one of them had an extra chunk of plastic on the inside that quickly rubbed a hole in my heel.]

cocoon wrote:

Coach -

4. I get severe DOMS in the quads after racing in Vaporfly. Don’t know the reason. Never had quad issues when racing in other shoes.

I'm wondering if it's from the additional bit of stabilizing you have to do due to the high height and the bounce. DOMS usually comes from eccentric stress on the muscle, and I would think that controlling and stabilizing bounce would create eccentric stress. I definitely have DOMS after racing in them, but I get DOMS over racing a half or full in any shoe. I have not personally noted improved recovery time from running in the VF.

Lots of great training and racing going on. There are quite a few topics I have been meaning to touch on and now I am finally making some time to do so.

RRR - Get that glute/piriformis/nerve thing right. It’s PR season on RRTT this fall.

GT - Very impressive running from you these last couple weeks. I think “Flyer” technicalities are the only things that can get in your way right now.

slo - The workouts and racing have been extra beastly. Save some of that magic for Indy.

Coyote - I dream of posting weeks like yours at age 61 as ho humly as you do.

Pappy - Glad to see a race report from you. Training has been really looking good lately.

Napper - Normally I am not a big fan of the two marathons in one season approach, but in your case I definitely feel it is appropriate. You had great weather conditions and ran a well-paced race in Chicago, meaning you didn’t hit that heatstroke wall, or blow up and bonk wall, or any kind of wall. With a well-planned interim schedule, you can certainly reverse taper, get in a couple tune-up sessions, and go full-blast more aggressively in December to see what you have. If you decide to play it safe and take a break now, certainly no shame in that approach either. But you certainly have this coach’s support whatever you decide.

GNR1 - Good luck tomorrow!

BHViking - Training has been really coming together for you these last few weeks. We will have to make it a point to meet up in CIM.

stat - Nice looking week. Really strong running on the weekend.

drcrusher - 8 seconds. That’s the famous timeframe of bullriding, and racing a half marathon is an apt analogy. It’s tough to always commit to holding on. I think that is what you were beating yourself up about initially. It sounds like in retrospect, you had those 8 seconds in you somewhere during the race but you either lost focus or didn’t commit the way you in your heart know that you could have.

While it is disappointing to miss a PR like that, learning the lesson in a tune-up race is incredibly valuable. Take that experience and apply it to your training and your racing between now and Philly. Many people focus only on the physical aspect of training and racing but they don’t always focus on the mental aspect of training and racing. This goes back to AJ’s salient post a few weeks back. RGMW uses my new favorite phrase, “Winning each mile.” When you are in the hurt locker at mile 9 in a HM and you contemplate having to hold on for 4 more miles, it’s easy to start negotiating with yourself and letting yourself off the hook. It’s tougher to really commit. But if you can always commit to just “winning the mile” that you are in, hitting that split, pretending that the end of that mile is the end of the race, and mentally and physically resetting when the next mile marker arrives, you’ll train yourself how to find those 8 seconds, to “ride the bull,” so to speak. I actually perform a physical cue every time my Garmin autolaps during tempo runs. I touch my Road ID bracelet on my opposite hand. On it is written my motto from college (Saint Joseph’s University) “The Hawk Will Never Die.” It also reminds me of my father. Every time I feel the autolap go off on my left wrist, I touch my right one. It “resets” me mentally that I need to commit to this mile, to win this mile. If you win every mile, or even most of the miles, you will “win” the race and get that PR.

Guy Broman - My best advice is to run as often as you are able to with your spouse. No matter how slow she is, let her set the pace and run alongside her. Your wife will get faster over time. You will get faster over time. My meaningful PRs have all occurred in the past couple years during phases where I started running a lot with Mrs. Stone. (My ex-wife was a non-runner and never truly supported my running, but that’s an entirely different story.) To me, it doesn’t matter that most of my runs with Mrs. Stone are in the 9:00-10:00/mile zone, or that her workout pace is my easy pace. It gets me out there. She holds me accountable as a partner to get my running in. It rewards me to pace her because then I can share in her successes, which in return inspire me to my own.

RGMW - I like your post-Chicago reflection process. Something I have learned about myself is that I respond best to 12 week cycles. Anything longer than that, I tend to peak too early or get injured. Anything shorter than that, I just can’t get proper training in.

I think if you focus on the weights and the speed training over the winter/spring, you will naturally have a better starting base for next year’s marathon cycle. Look at GT, who you yourself called out recently from going from “this” level to “that” level so quickly. It actually wasn’t quickly. It just seemed that way. He put in the training, “winning each mile.”

darkwave - First off, congrats on the PR. To use an AJ phrase, a PR is nothing to sneeze at. Sometimes we don’t fully appreciate them for what they are, because we never know when the PR is the final PR until we are done achieving them.

But an observation about your race. You say the race had an “uphill” start. You also say that you thought you paced the race well, that you started conservatively and picked up a solid pace. You covered your first three miles in 19:33 (6:11/mile) = 1:21:03 HM pace. As your target was 1:23:xx, I am just thinking it was a classic case of going out more aggressively than your body and brain signals were telling you (perhaps your internal clock wasn’t as accurate because you were not feeling well?). But I say this not as an admonishment, but as a reasonable explanation for your legs feeling tired when you wanted them to fire. The HM is such an ornery distance. As I was saying to drcrusher, it is like riding a bull. And if your grip on the race isn’t just right, it’s so much easier to slip and fall off. Go out with a fast first mile in a 5K, you can regroup and still finish with a kick. Go out with a fast first 5k in a marathon, you can recalibrate and have time to get back on track. In a HM, it is such a thin line between being on the “redline” and being beyond the “redline” that even 5 seconds a mile too fast too early in the race can mess with the end result.

I also say this as a guy who has made that same mistake, and as a guy who has learned from that mistake that the mistake was not a reflection of overall fitness - the mistake was a reflection of the mistake. I think you are in 2:55 shape. I think that 6:40s will also now feel way easier for you having suffered through 6:20s. And I definitely think that when illness is not even in the discussion, you will always run and feel way better. So I hope you are feeling better already.

AJ - Thinking back-to-back also, I like it. It’s only fitting given your contribution to the legend of OR. Just wish there was a way to make it to CIM instead of Indy. Good luck on the convincing the family part.

RunnerSam - Feel better soon, man.

I am really digging the Still Improving/Thoughtsleader discussion. TL, your training reminds me a TON of my training back in 2011, when I barely broke 3 hours for the first time (2:59:50). What changed between then and now? First, I increased my volume. I went from typical weeks in the 40-50 mile range for marathon training, to 50-60 mile weeks to run 2:55 (2013), to 65-70 mile weeks to run 2:47 (2018), to roughly 70-80 mile weeks where I am now hoping to run low 2:40s. The other big change came from following structured plans. I used a Hansons inspired plan to run the 2:55, and a more Canova inspired plan to run 2:47. My training today is kind of a blend of both philosophies, with a lot of specific training at and around marathon pace. Part of how I increased my volume was by slowing down and running my recovery days with slower friends who needed a pacer for their workouts. So I would find myself running 10, 12, 15 miles at a time in the 8:30-9:30/mile zone and actually feeling great after. Slowing down my training runs became my secret weapon. As I said to Guy Broman, I think running with your fiancee is a fantastic idea. It’s what I do now with Mrs. Stone. If it wasn’t for her, I would probably still be running only 40-50 miles a week. But guiding her to her successes inspires me to my own, and once I start becoming fit it just really snowballs so much easier. I think all of the recommendations that SI made to you are fantastic ones. I also think RGMW’s advice is spot on - do the training that will give you the most consistency. Like them, I also think you have a lot more in the tank in future races with more guided training.

Re: Vaporfly, Next%. I have only raced in OG VF's. One marathon, one HM. My legs overall felt much less beat up than the usually do. But the area I still felt it the next day was in the quads. As a relatively bigger runner, I always feel it in the quads the next day.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

But an observation about your race. You say the race had an “uphill” start. You also say that you thought you paced the race well, that you started conservatively and picked up a solid pace. You covered your first three miles in 19:33 (6:11/mile) = 1:21:03 HM pace. As your target was 1:23:xx, I am just thinking it was a classic case of going out more aggressively than your body and brain signals were telling you (perhaps your internal clock wasn’t as accurate because you were not feeling well?).

Except 19:33 is 6:39/mile, about 1:25:22 HM pace. Her third mile was 6:11, I'm assuming that one was downhill?

6:31/mi I should say. Ha!

darkwave wrote:

I'm wondering if it's from the additional bit of stabilizing you have to do due to the high height and the bounce. DOMS usually comes from eccentric stress on the muscle, and I would think that controlling and stabilizing bounce would create eccentric stress. I definitely have DOMS after racing in them, but I get DOMS over racing a half or full in any shoe. I have not personally noted improved recovery time from running in the VF.

This could totally be the reasoning for extra DOMS. Not my skill to think so deeply about anything, so it is helpful when someone points it out :). lol..j/k, j/k.

I have never received a lemon shoe, so have never worried about the fallout of getting one. Good point there.

Also, all my experiences have been with Vaporfly OG that I had bought from Eastbay when the shoes first came out. Will use Next% in CIM.

Allen1959 wrote:

The Stone Cutter wrote:

But an observation about your race. You say the race had an “uphill” start. You also say that you thought you paced the race well, that you started conservatively and picked up a solid pace. You covered your first three miles in 19:33 (6:11/mile) = 1:21:03 HM pace. As your target was 1:23:xx, I am just thinking it was a classic case of going out more aggressively than your body and brain signals were telling you (perhaps your internal clock wasn’t as accurate because you were not feeling well?).

Except 19:33 is 6:39/mile, about 1:25:22 HM pace. Her third mile was 6:11, I'm assuming that one was downhill?

Haha. Yeah, bad visual math on my part. Probably should not have posted after writing a variety of weekly schedules. D'oh!

So obviously darkwave was not overly aggressive the first two miles of the race. Perhaps the hills in and of themselves took a lot of you, on top of the sickness? Hard race to process. The important thing is the target race is weeks away and hopefully you'll be feeling better and can take a real crack it.

RRR update. It’s def a nerve issue. I have had intense pain in my glute-back-hamstring-heel-calf. Every spot you could imagine. Something is kinked up somewhere ... I guess I pinched it getting out the tub last Saturday. So bizarre. This morning I did run 4 and felt really good after. Worked out some pain so decided to do an easy jog double and it started hurting really bad on the second run. So ?‍♂️ We shall see what tomorrow brings but it’s def better than last weekend when I could barely walk. The massage therapist didn’t think it was a piriformis or overuse injury as they felt the same on both sides .. just some weirdo pinch up somewhere.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Haha. Yeah, bad visual math on my part. Probably should not have posted after writing a variety of weekly schedules. D'oh!

So obviously darkwave was not overly aggressive the first two miles of the race. Perhaps the hills in and of themselves took a lot of you, on top of the sickness? Hard race to process. The important thing is the target race is weeks away and hopefully you'll be feeling better and can take a real crack it.

That's exactly where I am. I think, with a few days reflection, that it comes down to three things:

1) I think that 6:11 third mile was a bit too aggressive. It did have a downward incline to it (not really downhill, but I actually find slight downward inclines easier to really build pace on), but I think that after a suitably conservative start, I rushed myself and didn't let the race come to me. I need to not do that at Indy.

[also need to be clear - while there were some inclines that would account for some miles being slower or faster, this wasn't really a hilly course - I'd describe it as fast and mostly flat, and a good course to target for a PR. Just want to be clear in case someone thought I was claiming this was a hilly, slow course. The biggest inclines were the first mile and a half out from the start, and the final mile and a half coming home.]

2) I think I was slightly underfueled (from not wanting GI problems) and also drained from the UC issues earlier in the week.

3) No question my breathing dramatically improved once I got back to DC and got my next Xolair shot (once a month medication, legal under USADA, that essentially turns off my allergies for a month). Sometimes you don't realize how off you feel until you no longer feel off. That shot usually wears off right before I'm due for the next one, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't move my next shot up to right before I left for Columbus. I just assumed that late October was too late to worry about ragweed.

While I don't think one should place too much stock in heart rate, when I look at my report for Columbus, my HR is significantly elevated above what I usually see in a HM. About 4 beats per minute, which I think is a lot for a race in perfect weather (had it been warm, I'd find this less notable). And Garmin also says my resting HR was elevated while there. So something was definitely off.

I think at this point, the best thing to do is to take this as a reminder of the importance of letting the race come to me, and not forcing it. And also to let myself be a bit happy that I could feel a bit off and still PR. It's nice to run 84:08 and be disappointed; when I ran 84:22 nearly a year ago at Richmond I was thrilled.

***

RRR - this sciatica thing is so frustrating. I hope tomorrow is better.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Napper - Normally I am not a big fan of the two marathons in one season approach, but in your case I definitely feel it is appropriate. You had great weather conditions and ran a well-paced race in Chicago, meaning you didn’t hit that heatstroke wall, or blow up and bonk wall, or any kind of wall. With a well-planned interim schedule, you can certainly reverse taper, get in a couple tune-up sessions, and go full-blast more aggressively in December to see what you have. If you decide to play it safe and take a break now, certainly no shame in that approach either. But you certainly have this coach’s support whatever you decide.

BHViking - Training has been really coming together for you these last few weeks. We will have to make it a point to meet up in CIM.

I just thought I'd mention something that one of my friends just did that is likely a huge outlier. His PR before Chicago was 2:58 in Phoenix which has a downhill first half. Anyway, including Chicago, he ran 3 marathons in 2 weekends.

Oct 5 - 3:05

Oct 6 - 3:14

Oct 13 (Chicago) - 2:52

No way would I personally attempt this but I thought I'd share because I found it to be unbelievable. Ironically (and relevant to the rest of the conversation, he wore the Vaporfly 4%'s for the first time at Chicago and he thinks it might be the shoes.

Coach Stone - It would be great to see you at CIM before you absolutely dust me off the line! :)

True madness! And to cap it off with a monstrous PB...dude must be a monster. Thanks to all with kind words and advice. I feel great about the exciting year of running to come. RRR so sorry about your sciatica.