Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 9/22/19

outsiderunner wrote:

Hamstring locked up on the last rep of my 4x2 this morning.

If there is no shot at 2:40, I see no point in running another mid-2:40s (or slower) marathon.

Thus, that could be bye bye Richmond.

Sh*t sorry to hear about the lock-up. 4x2 is a really tough one -- don't give up hope just yet! You've been looking mighty fit, hopefully just need to let the hammy fully recoup; I agree with Stat in trying to get it back to 100%. I think if all you do is nurse back to 100% health, and just squeeze in just a few quality sessions, your fitness and sharpness would carry. From what I've seen over the year you've had the beastly fitness for most of it, it's just staying healthy to tie the bow.

Wishing a speedy rebound from today!

Stat - on the every other weekend long run (the weekends I dont have my beautiful daughter).. and also stretching out the mid week workout length as I go. Solid 13 this morn.

Napper - Come on to Indy if the weather sucks.. the more RRTTers the merrier.

I appreciate the comments and good wishes. I have not had anything like this in a long time. When it happens, though, it is three or four months or more before it is completely gone.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

I also know what you mean about "grade changes." To me, the primary useful metric on Strava is the GAP "Grade adjusted pace." I look at it all the time after a hilly run. As long as the grade is not ridiculous, the adjustments seem reasonable. Do you consider the GAP?

But, yeah, you don't need the data. When you nail it, you know. Let's go get it!

I forgot about Strava GAP. I presume it's probably reasonably accurate?

I use a Stryd footpod to get more accurate distance/pace for some of the goofy areas I run through that messes with GPS, plus it's great for treadmill distance accuracy (it doesn't care where you are). Stryd claims that it is a power meter which I personally think is BS. However, it really seems to be a tremendous Grade Adjusted Pace tool that they are passing off as "power". Must be for marketing purposes. The "power" number means absolutely nothing except for it's extremely predictable as in how it reacts to your speed over % grade. It also has a tool built into their software that estimates your threshold represented by this "power" number (actually grade adjusted pace) which seems shockingly close to accurate at least for me. I believe it is close because I can run comfortably fast close to that number for a long time but as soon as I go over my breathing shifts into another gear. Another cool feature is that it calculates a running stress score over time which is essentially duration multiplied by "power" (really Grade Adjusted Pace). I'm not advocating that anyone go out and purchase a Stryd but the accurate distance / pace is why I bought it.

So to answer your question, yes, I do consider the GAP for post run analysis but I do so in an unconventional way. :D

outsiderunner wrote:

I appreciate the comments and good wishes. I have not had anything like this in a long time. When it happens, though, it is three or four months or more before it is completely gone.

Right but how many of those times were you trying to run through it like you are right now? That's a genuine question, I wouldn't know that.

My concern is that you are digging a deeper hole for yourself by continuing to attempt workouts and pushing through, which is why it's lingering for so long. Obviously a 3-4 month time frame would be a big issue given your fall goals, but if you can limit that to a week or 2 by backing off a little I think you'd still be more than fit enough to run a good race at Richmond.

stat - Thanks very much. My plan is to back off. Not sure what the overall outcome will be.

Some more comments:

Coyote - Always a model of consistency.

drcrusher - I am very familiar with 3:25:00 fitness based on Mrs. Stone’s goals/training. You are a clear notch faster than her, and I too would expect your lifetime PR to be under serious threat. I really don’t think it is a stretch for you to target 3:20:00, but you seem to know yourself well and can make that assessment as you get closer to race day. Volume and workouts have looked really good.

darkwave - I completely agree with your assessment of your fitness. I think sub-2:55:00 fitness is there. I also think it is easy to get greedy - it is important to remember what you have done to get you where you currently are. I am a big fan of the 2 x 5 mile long run in training - very well done, and at the end of a busy action packed week. As far as the walk recoveries, I haven’t done any super fast stuff in quite some time. I gave myself walk recoveries both as a mental and physical recovery tool to focus on staying as relaxed as possible and to feel as recovered as possible between reps. The reps will quickly get longer and the recoveries will blend toward full jog/steady recoveries as I approach the specificity of race day…

Sub 6:00 - Your training has been super impressive all summer. I agree with Smoove. You can thrive off of a more aggressive taper to get your body right for race day. The injury may be a big blessing in disguise that will leave you incredibly fresh and sharp on race day. It is nice to have the backup option just in case, though...

BHViking - That is a massive quality long run.

DietBacon - It’s time to adjust HMP based on that long tempo. Wow, serious quality. I would guess you are closer to 1:12:xx - 1:13:xx HM shape based on that workout.

LancRunner - Holy Michigan, Batman! Sub 17 should be a piece of cake after that.

Coach Jeff - Rough week last week, way to tough it out. Nice reward on this week’s workout.

GNR1 - Great quality in your three sessions last week. Fitness is looking good from top to bottom.

Thoughtsleader - Your proposed taper looks good. I also typically do 12 miles or 90 minutes a week out from a marathon.

cocoon - Really nice looking week at this point in the game. The split tempo / fartlek sandwich is a great mixed workout. I’ll be doing something in that vein this weekend…

RunnerSam - Feel better, man. Mrs. RunnerSam is definitely tracking for a sub-3 debut. Just remind her to be patient the first 20 miles...

Napper - Haha, nice. Subtly laying low the last few weeks so he can fly under the radar before dropping a 2:37…

OR - Gotta agree with stat on this one. Still plenty of time for Richmond. Your fitness level is already high. We know from the August HM that you are race sharp. And your volume has been incredibly consistent for months. You can afford some downtime and easy running to shake the hamstring situation. In two weeks (possibly even less), you will be good as new with a newfound appreciation for your fitness. No need to throw in the towel just yet, frustrating as it is to experience setbacks.

stat - Solid week of base there for you before starting workouts again. As I explained to darkwave, I played cautious on the 400s since it was my first foray into faster running in some time. I will build up to the HMP/MP blend tempos with the marathon pace “recovery” segments in a few weeks. Right now, it’s about introducing 3 elements of training - speed (relative to MP), MP, and endurance. The speed workouts will get slower and start approaching MP; I will touch on MP weekly to get a good feel about what feels proper given the brevity of this buildup; and the endurance runs will start approaching MP specific training also. Kind of the classic Canova funnel with a Hanson’s strength/tempo component mixed in there this cycle.

Thank you, Stone. Two weeks would not be that bad. Not giving up quite yet...I was just fearing that history might repeat itself.

Napper - thx dude. I like your plan for going out just under 1:20, and having Indy as a fall back. If Chicago is going to be warm I’d def make the switch. Indy tends to be cooler and it’s still a pretty fast course from what I hear. Plus you could probably pace tweedle dum (GT) and tweedle dee (RRR) in their little showdown.

OR - sorry to hear about your hammy dude. 4x2 is a tough workout. Don’t let your ultimate goal of 2:40 get in the way of a PR. Gotta get those while you can.

Stone: Looking good. Cant wait to see what the next 12 weeks bring.

slo-twitch: Dang!!! Impressive!!!

GT: Great week! Do you think you're going to quick on the 2k's, not enough recover or a mental block with them? You did better on the 3x2 which is a harder workout I'd think.

RRR: Great week!

jot quill: Wow!!! Another good week! Great job on your progressions through those workouts.

Niceguy542007:Very nice week! I'd rule out the "good day" You're doing the work and should only improve.

rucker: good week! what drills did you do Friday?

Guy Broman: sorry about the ankle. Is it better?

THOUGHTSLEADER: Good week! feel better soon!

angryjohnny: Very nice! great workout and good job restraining yourself.

outsiderunner: Good week! Hope the hamstring gets better. You do realize that if you take a week off right now, come back with a medium week and then get back at it. You won't even miss a lick. Sometimes we get so caught up in having to hit the next little goal/target/workout we lose focus on the big picture. Taking a couple of days, a week, 10 days to get healthy will do more than limping through training. I just give that advice after taking off (I don't know how long) trying to run through two bad knees that got worse every step.

Sub17Achieved: Good week! Congrats on the name change!!!!! Even split it too. Means you could probably go faster.

3283823: Sorry for the bad luck. Hope everything is going good now.

Smoove: Hoping everything gets better soon.

drcrusher: Impressive week! I bet that felt good running the 7:40's and under.

RunGuy Midwest: Wow another big week!! nice workouts throughout too.

Coyote Montane: LOL still a great week!

darkwave: Very impressive as always.

Sub 6:00: Wow great week! Glad the knee is already getting better.

BHViking: Good week! how big were those hills?

DietBacon: Good week! Heck of a good workout on Thursday!

LancRunner: Great week! you're really moving along. Since you ran it I got to ask, what is the point of the Michigan workout? I never have understood it.

Coach Jeff: Beast mode!

GNR1: Very nice

cocoon: Looking really good!

RunnerSam: Glad you are feeling better. Soon to be MRsRunnerSam is kicking some butt.

Sorry I have done a crap job taking over for TDR. I'm trying, my work just got exponentially busier lately.

@Pappy I've always understood the Michigan to be a race simulation workout. It's especially applicable for college xc where to be competitive at the national level you have to be able to manage getting out a bit hot through the first 800-1600 in order to put yourself in a competitive position in relation to the rest of the field. So basically the first hard mile simulates that part of the race. Then you settle into a 'comfortable' tempo because 10k is way too far and only psychos actually enjoy racing that distance over grass. After a bit of that though one of those psychos makes a move and you have to respond. That's the 1200 rep. That move is too early, the field doesn't break up, and back to the reasonable tempo we go. With around 2k or so to go somebody without a kick makes another move in a long grind for home, and you have to respond again. That's the 800. The last tempo mile feels significantly less 'comfortable' as the total volume adds up, just like in a 10k. Then you kick like heck over the last 400 hoping for the win, the glory of All-American, or to displace a few crucial runners to secure the team title.

Or something like that...

This is incredible.... I felt like a psycho even attempting that workout to be honest. Probably a bit much for me, but hoping the hard effort translates to more stimulus and better fitness. I would NOT ever make it a regular rotation workout. One of those "once a cycle" or "once ever" workouts. I like a challenge, so in that aspect, I guess you could have said it was "fun".

stat - that was as fun to read as a race report... solid writing.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I've heard of this workout a lot and have never had a good opinion of it. Mostly because of the people I have heard run it. With your description I won't change my opinion. It sounds like a great workout for someone in really good to great shape. People in not so good of shape it could very easily be to hard. Once again thanks.

Pappy wrote:

Thanks for the detailed reply. I've heard of this workout a lot and have never had a good opinion of it. Mostly because of the people I have heard run it. With your description I won't change my opinion. It sounds like a great workout for someone in really good to great shape. People in not so good of shape it could very easily be to hard. Once again thanks.

Yeah I certainly wouldn't throw it into most training plans. That said, when run well it's one of the most impressive things you can witness. I had a teammate in college who absolutely crushed a variation of the Michigan to the tune of:

1600: 4:26

10 min tempo: 5:15ish pace

1200: 3:12

8.5 min tempo: 5:15ish pace

800: 1:59

7 min tempo

400: 52

He went on to finish in the top 25 at nationals a few weeks later. That's still probably the most impressive workout I've ever seen, even though we didn't technically do it exactly right since we took I think 2 or 3 minutes after the track reps to jog down to the grass loop before starting the tempo and 60 seconds after the tempo to get back up to the track.

My opinion.... for whatever that is worth...

1. The workout is hard. It's meant to be. It's a race simulator. If a race isn't hard, then you're not racing.

2. It may be a bit over the top... as a workout. BUT... I think it has bolstered my confidence going into a race. I know I can hold a pace, I know I can change gears, I know that I can persevere through a rough patch.

3. You can really tune this workout a bit to make it easier (if you really wanted to) and still get benefit from it. I think if I wanted to make it a bit more palatable I could have made my tempo pace 6:10-6:15... in fact, given the distance of the workout, that may have been a bit more appropriate, but I guess I just went after it a bit as I felt good at the beginning, and tried to hold on.

I wouldn't rule this out as a workout, but I think it's important you know what you are trying to achieve with it (and every workout/run frankly). For me, I wanted a harder, longer workout. I wanted to test my fitness (as I haven't raced since June), I wanted to be uncomfortable and know I can get through it. I think it accomplished all those goals, in addition to providing my body with some stimulus to get physical benefit from it. Doing 5.5 miles of work at Tempo or below pace is psycho, but so is racing a 10k at all out race pace.

I think you could find your own variation, find it a fun challenge, and get a lot of benefits from it. I wouldn't rule it out. I read a quote from Ben Rosario (NAZ Elite coach) that I think sums it up really well.

"Of course, to me, the Michigan is all about the mental aspect. The athlete can never relax. For 5.5 miles there is no break. You’re 100% locked in the entire time. And last time I checked you don’t get to take a break in a race either! I also like, and maybe it’s just because it has a name, that the athlete sort of fears it going in. There’s an anticipation about it. I highly encourage coaches at all levels to come up with workouts like this one that create that hype around them. "

More of his thoughts here, especially about the "pace changing" and the stimulus he feels it provides.

https://www.nazelite.com/the-michigan/

Has Michigan ever won a NC in Cross Country?

runrincerepeat wrote:

Has Michigan ever won a NC in Cross Country?

Crickets....

The women were runner up in 2016...

Actually they have went (the men) 30x .. and have never made top 2. Maybe the workout is to hard if they are using it as race modeling?

Someone phone John Mcdonnell for a pre race workout!

I am definitely a fan of the Michigan, This was the third (of three) I've done since starting running. It gave me huge confidence in my fitness at the time. I didn't quite hit 3k or mile pace but the effort was right on.

9/18/18 Michigan - 8.8k in 31:52 or 5:49/mile

5:41 -1600 @ 10k pace

5:59 -1600 @ tempo pace

4:08 -1200 @ 5k pace

6:00 -1600 @ tempo pace

2:45 -800 @ 3k pace

6:00 -1600 @ tempo pace

1:19 -400 @ 1mi pace

I'd agree with Pappy that it is not a workout to do if you are not in good shape (relative to yourself). Lanc I would think you would want to shoot for the same splits as I did 6:00 tempo, 5:40 10k, 5:25 5k, 5:10 3k 5:00 mi. As far as I know you don't quite have the same experience as me with either longer workouts or races but It would still be a good 1-2 times a year workout. Ive only averaged once every other year. But will consider this workout again this spring.

-RS

On a site note, Sub 6 and OR - best of luck with your various set backs. I haven't been injured too much so its tough to have advice or guidance but hopefully y'all can keep the season on schedule.