He should be proud of those results! At least get them listed on the UM women's top 10...
He should be proud of those results! At least get them listed on the UM women's top 10...
The thing is, this athlete will not need to run anywhere near those times to be NCAA champion. People will see her cruise through races to win, point to her slower times and say it's evidence that she no longer has an advantage. Hopefully she will train well and run to her full potential and the NCAA will have to have a real conversation about this.
Hurdle Guy wrote:
The thing is, this athlete will not need to run anywhere near those times to be NCAA champion. People will see her cruise through races to win, point to her slower times and say it's evidence that she no longer has an advantage. Hopefully she will train well and run to her full potential and the NCAA will have to have a real conversation about this.
Good point. It's so deceitful. The athlete will just be pacing the other runners like a normal male would pace females and then sprint for the win.
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
Another article:
https://4windsusa.com/news-release-university-of-montana-transgender-to-dominate-top-collegiate-running/?fbclid=IwAR11sIWE6K46WTEr54zY5U2utAWu00Psyvhhs5Ow4UaLIbP2EKKh9WCE0i0
Very interesting article.
I hope LetsRun will also write about this travesty.
Thank God there are still journalists willing to protect women's sports.
I'd like to see EVERY female at EVERY heat he's in just refuse to run.
Real women could end this crap in less than a season if they tried.
Part of the problem is that women who are standing up against it are ending up getting death threats, rape threats and all kinds of frightening things via twitter and other media. It is truly frightening. Or they end up called bigots, transphobic, ostracised. Yes people should stand up against unfairness and I do but it's not without its price and it's not as easy as all that. Also why should the emphasis be on 'real women' to end this? Surely it's up to everyone? Who is causing the problem?
I wish June all the very best in her personal life and I fully respect her right to live as a woman, but I don't believe she should be allowed to compete in female sports. The advantages of having being born male are too great and not fair in a sport that is segregated by sex. This doesn't mean I don't think she has the right to live as she wants, to run, train, etc. Just not compete against biologically born women. Bones, lungs, pelvis, Q angle, everything... hundreds of advantages. It can't just be reduced to testosterone - it's way more complex than that and it's surprising that the IAAF just see it as a testosterone issue when it isn't.
Hurdle Guy wrote:
The thing is, this athlete will not need to run anywhere near those times to be NCAA champion. People will see her cruise through races to win, point to her slower times and say it's evidence that she no longer has an advantage. Hopefully she will train well and run to her full potential and the NCAA will have to have a real conversation about this.
And what if she doesn't win? What if adding 10lbs of fat and losing some testerone turns her into a 2:04/4:15/16:00 runner. A bit better as a woman than as a man but not a world beater?
People aren't going to be doing this just to win a race like some people seem to think. People have been trotting that crap out for 50 years now. But there is some question about what is being done (i.e. taking estrogen, surgeries,...) and to what extent that levels the playing field. People talk about Renee Richards thinking she would have dominated womans tennis if she transitioned in her 20s but why wouldn't you expect her to? This was a guy who played in the US open. Given that level of talent and lack of depth in the womans game, dominating might have been the expected outcome. The question is would they dominate like a Serena Williams or would it be some absurd thing where you would go 5 years without losing.
It seems like at a minimum the NCAA should be doing testosterone testing and the like. Also seems like a sport like Basketball is going to be the place with this gets decided. When some 6'4 guy that can jump decides he is a girl and dominates March Madness, you will have a level of publicity that track just can't match.
Mike Rozzi wrote:
The Original Poster wrote:
She was logging on Running2Win though, appropriately, mid June.
Do you have a link to her account? Is she slowing down?
June was logging workouts from January through March. I would guess about 17 min 5k fitness based on the workouts. Nothing close to 3:50 or 14:38.
http://www.running2win.com/community/view-member-profile.asp?vu=june.eastwoodThe coach is Mormon. He went from an all Mormon school to public University of Montana
2miler wrote:
FM117 wrote:
I'd like to see EVERY female at EVERY heat he's in just refuse to run.
Real women could end this crap in less than a season if they tried.
That would be great if all the women that lined up against him DNS'ed in protest!
That's not how things work. The NCAA determines who is eligible to compete and the other runners don't have the right to choose who they will compete against. They would be risk losing scholarships and eligibility if they did what you suggest.
The only possible good outcome is that if Eastwood runs the same times as she did as a male, the NCAA will be forced to require limits on testosterone levels.
If June's been taking the drugs I guarantee she runs very averagely.
This will be an interesting experiment anyway. Put to test a lot of people's different theories.
Some think she will run 14:30. Others 16:30. Let's just see what really happens
Editor's note: The athlete in question appears to be Montana athlete June Eastwood. She competed on the men's track team for 3 years as Jonathan Eastwood, amassing PBs 1:55.23, 3:50.19 and 14:38.80. We changed the title of the thread to reflect this and we've decided to require to registration to post on this topic.
We imagine it's not easy to transition and ask that you please be respectful of June Eastwood the person even if you, like us, vehemently don't respect her decision to compete in D1 sports as a woman.
[/quote]
I find this note absurd. What does it mean be respectful of June Eastwood the person if you disagree with their decision? I'm not sure how you separate the person from the decision they are making here. No one is forcing June to continue to compete against women. If she wants to identify as a female that's her choice. But she could choose to continue to compete against males which is what her physical identity is or to stop competing.
I think the decisions by June and Semenya show more about their character in that they care more about the betterment of themselves than anything else. Understanding that Semenya's physical situation is completely different but it still results in a level fairness issue.
This whole situation is becoming absolutely absurd. Sports governing bodies need to stop tippy-toeing around this issue and grow cajones. They are under no obligation to accommodate this madness and should not. I know they're scared some uninformed journalist is going to write a scathing column or some activist judge will come down hard on them, both very real fears. But I think they open themselves to the same legal issues by continuing to not take a stance on this. It blows my mind that we continue to potentially damage the sport for the majority to accommodate a fraction of the population.
ex-runner wrote:
If June's been taking the drugs I guarantee she runs very averagely.
This will be an interesting experiment anyway. Put to test a lot of people's different theories.
Some think she will run 14:30. Others 16:30. Let's just see what really happens
What matters is the effort. If the 16:30 is more comfortable than the 14:30 then you can see that the athlete is holding back on purpose.
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
If June's been taking the drugs I guarantee she runs very averagely.
This will be an interesting experiment anyway. Put to test a lot of people's different theories.
Some think she will run 14:30. Others 16:30. Let's just see what really happens
What matters is the effort. If the 16:30 is more comfortable than the 14:30 then you can see that the athlete is holding back on purpose.
Why would she do that? How does sandbagging until the NCAA XC championships make any difference?
The Original Poster wrote:
Mike Rozzi wrote:
Do you have a link to her account? Is she slowing down?
June was logging workouts from January through March. I would guess about 17 min 5k fitness based on the workouts. Nothing close to 3:50 or 14:38.
http://www.running2win.com/community/view-member-profile.asp?vu=june.eastwood
I kind of agree that right now low 17s looks like the limit that she currently has and that could even be a stretch. Looked at the entire log and initially there was a mention of fatigue from new medication and then a few weeks later about taking second round of transitioning medication. Easy runs before that were 7 minute pace and now she is lucky to dip under 8 mins. Easy runs and workouts do not indicate June will be anything close to what Jonathan's prs are.
Seems like he was indeed on some kind of meds. Not sure if that's still the case.
I am not sure how the American system exactly works. Because he has now joined the female team, does this mean they had to kick one real girl out?
Thursday, 6/28/2018 Afternoon Normal Run [ Top ]
Workout Data:
Total distance 6.5 Miles in 49:35 [7:37 per mile]
Comments Felt kinda tired - might be sleep related. Started second transition medication. :)
Friday, 6/8/2018 Afternoon Easy Run [ Top ]
Workout Data:
Total distance 4.5 Miles in 32:01 [7:06 per mile]
Comments Exhausted - I think it has something to do with the medication.
Monday, 9/17/2018 Afternoon Easy Run [ Top ]
Workout Data:
Total distance 6.83 Miles in 1:02:03 [9:05 per mile]
Comments Felt tired pretty much the whole run - eyes couldn’t even completely focus. Potentially from a lot of different reasons - food, water, sleep, maybe hormone changes. On the bright side, no foot pain.
Tuesday, 12/18/2018 Afternoon Interval Workout [ Top ]
Workout Data:
Total distance 7 Miles
Comments 2mi WU
3x(800 | 400 |400)
(2:45 | 77 | 75)
(2:40 | 75 | 76)
(2:44 | 77 | 78)
2mi CD
Notes: Got to run on the outdoor track ??Took a few reps to get fully warmed up, but felt good through the middle set, and even got warm enough to just go in a sports bra! Felt a bit tired on the tail end, but didn’t fall off too bad. Sore on the cool down home, but feeling pretty good overall about this workout!
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
Another article:
https://4windsusa.com/news-release-university-of-montana-transgender-to-dominate-top-collegiate-running/?fbclid=IwAR11sIWE6K46WTEr54zY5U2utAWu00Psyvhhs5Ow4UaLIbP2EKKh9WCE0i0
This article doesn't shine anything new on this whole discussion. I wouldn't be surprised that the author is someone from this forum, or even the OP themselves.
I have looked through this thread and have yet to find any real "source" for this discussion. How did the OP know about this? Did they just happen to be scrolling through the Montana TF/XC rosters and did the comparison after wondering who this new "June Eastwood" come from?
SDSU Aztec wrote:
2miler wrote:
That would be great if all the women that lined up against him DNS'ed in protest!
That's not how things work. The NCAA determines who is eligible to compete and the other runners don't have the right to choose who they will compete against. They would be risk losing scholarships and eligibility if they did what you suggest.
The only possible good outcome is that if Eastwood runs the same times as she did as a male, the NCAA will be forced to require limits on testosterone levels.
My point is the women go to the meet, if he shows up in their heat just don't run.
Granted if a few women did this they would have a problem, if they all took this
approach the problem would get fixed.
Every meet, every time, just walk off.
It sounds like June is taking medication to transition based on the Running2Win log. That being the case, it's extremely unlikely she'll make a big impact like so many people here are fearing or suspecting.
Check out this study that was referenced in an article earlier in this thread. Generally the age-graded times for MTF transgenders that actually transitioned with hormones indicates there is no performance advantage. It's probably beyond the scope of this thread, but it indicates runners should be doing everything possible to keep their testosterone levels as high as possible. Testosterone is clearly king when it comes to performance.
I predict June gets in no faster than 16:30 5000 shape. Based on her pictures on Montana's site she's probably deficient in vitamin D too.
FM117 wrote:
My point is the women go to the meet, if he shows up in their heat just don't run.
Granted if a few women did this they would have a problem, if they all took this
approach the problem would get fixed.
Every meet, every time, just walk off.
^^^^ This.
It would get huge media attention if this happened.
The right would agree with it.
The left would somehow find a way to say it was outrageous and disrespectful to the entire LGBTQ movement/community.