Marazon wrote:
The Ingebrigtsens prove that they have a great genetic makeup for distance running, that they have a very competent coach and, generally, that they are great athletes.
That's about it.
And it proves that intense training and focus from a young age can be extremely beneficial. At what age do East Africans start running seriously (70+ km per week with structured workouts)? For most European/Western kids it's not until high school, if even then.
I don't know which event you are looking at. I guess this whole thread is about 1500m, as 13:02 is not even close to "closing the gap". In 2007, there was Alan Webb in the 1500m. The fact is that Ingebrigtsens are not running faster than Europeans (Cram, Coe, Ovett) were 30 years ago, or runners like Nick Willis (1500m) and Chris Solinsky (5000m) this decade.
What nonsense drivel wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Non-Africans are not closing the gap.
What is this nonsense? With this you automatically lose all credibility.
Seriously? I mean you look at 2007, 2008, 2009 there were NO (as in 0) non-Africans in the top 10.
Now look at the last 3 years.
2017: 1 non-African
2018: 3 non-Africans
2019: 4 non-Africans
You're telling me non-Africans are not closing the gap? WTF?
Even as kids, the Ingebrigtsens realized that their training wasn't normal. Watch from about 9:06.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhsk3lnlkSg
The potential is there, but most Western kids, couldn't be bothered to get out of bed and train at 6:00 am and then again after school most likely. Swimmers do, but runners not so much.
You're the one making about race, when OP is making it about nat wrote:
not this again wrote:
The operating assumption that Africans are doping, while Europeans aren't, makes him a full-on racist. More to the point, it's crappy logic. Running is a talent that is strongly influenced by genetics. Genes for any particular trait are not distributed equally. Grow up and deal with it.
You're the one making about race, when OP is making it about nationality.
When in doubt, bring the race card out..
rekrunner wrote:
I don't know which event you are looking at. I guess this whole thread is about 1500m, as 13:02 is not even close to "closing the gap".
In 2007, there was Alan Webb in the 1500m.
The fact is that Ingebrigtsens are not running faster than Europeans (Cram, Coe, Ovett) were 30 years ago, or runners like Nick Willis (1500m) and Chris Solinsky (5000m) this decade.
What nonsense drivel wrote:
What is this nonsense? With this you automatically lose all credibility.
Seriously? I mean you look at 2007, 2008, 2009 there were NO (as in 0) non-Africans in the top 10.
Now look at the last 3 years.
2017: 1 non-African
2018: 3 non-Africans
2019: 4 non-Africans
You're telling me non-Africans are not closing the gap? WTF?
Cram and Ovett and Williamson were teen prodigies. Jakob is better than they were as teens and practically better than they were at full development.
I'm sure you are desperately crossing your fingers in the hopes that Jakob never runs a fraction faster, ever.
spade detector wrote:
abc123. wrote:
Perhaps you don't understand because you two have the logic of a fruit fly?
And your statement is supported by what?
The sound of buzzing.
rekrunner wrote:
It was not that hard to understand:
"EPO doesn't work" are Coevett's words, not mine.
"placebo" is Subway's word, not mine.
Subway's word, apparently meant to back up Coevett's words, appears to me to contradict Coevett's words.
If you want to understand me, then you should read my words, in the context with which they are said.
Armstronglivs wrote:
So the Master of Double Negatives (which is a device for not saying what you are in fact saying, or vice versa, saying what you are not saying) says he "doesn't believe" and "doesn't say" that EPO "doesn't work", which necessarily suggests he does say (sort of) and does believe that EPO does work. (Or maybe he is really saying nothing? That, too, is possible.) But, in the same breath, he says he doesn't have a "placebo hypothesis", because that would be saying EPO "works" because it has "an effect". And he apparently isn't saying that, that EPO works - despite what you just read what he just said. Has anyone ever worked so hard to be misunderstood? It would take Sherlock Holmes to track down what this man really means, such is his resolute determination to remain utterly obscure.
But you spend all your time saying that you didn't say what people said you have said. No one, it seems, correctly understands you. Of course they don't - you shift like the sand.
rekrunner wrote:
I don't know which event you are looking at. I guess this whole thread is about 1500m, as 13:02 is not even close to "closing the gap".
In 2007, there was Alan Webb in the 1500m.
The fact is that Ingebrigtsens are not running faster than Europeans (Cram, Coe, Ovett) were 30 years ago, or runners like Nick Willis (1500m) and Chris Solinsky (5000m) this decade.
What nonsense drivel wrote:
What is this nonsense? With this you automatically lose all credibility.
Seriously? I mean you look at 2007, 2008, 2009 there were NO (as in 0) non-Africans in the top 10.
Now look at the last 3 years.
2017: 1 non-African
2018: 3 non-Africans
2019: 4 non-Africans
You're telling me non-Africans are not closing the gap? WTF?
Actually, for me the top 20 in the 1500 is an even better indicator.
2007 4 out of top 20 Non-African
2008 3 out of 20
2009 4 out 20
Leap to:
2017 4 out top 20 N-Af
2018 8 out of 20
2019 9 out of 20!!
So Non-Africans are now almost 50-50 with Africans. Hmmmmm...
These are measures of "quantity", whereas the statement of "closing the gap" is one of "quality". If we consider the best European times of the 1980s, when I looked at historical times up until 2018, only 16 East Africans had run faster than this mid-1980s benchmark, over a period of 28 years. So when you look at top-20 per year, most of them, Africans and non-Africans alike, are not running the kinds of times I considered as "closing the gap".
Closing the gap wrote:
Actually, for me the top 20 in the 1500 is an even better indicator.
2007 4 out of top 20 Non-African
2008 3 out of 20
2009 4 out 20
Leap to:
2017 4 out top 20 N-Af
2018 8 out of 20
2019 9 out of 20!!
So Non-Africans are now almost 50-50 with Africans. Hmmmmm...
I do spend a lot of time denying imaginary strawmen. I can think of a half dozen reasons for that, ranging from a lack of comprehension to a lack of honesty, but the resulting (and probably desired) effect is a complete evasion to debate topics with me on the merits with substantial arguments by turning it into a personal discussion about me.
Armstronglivs wrote:
But you spend all your time saying that you didn't say what people said you have said. No one, it seems, correctly understands you. Of course they don't - you shift like the sand.
No, the Ingebrigtsens's prove superior doping techniques work very well. Maybe the East Africans are clean after all.
Lol. Much, much harder to get away with doping in Norwegian track. East Africa? Wild wild west out there baby. 90%+ are doping like madmen.
Closing the gap wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
I don't know which event you are looking at. I guess this whole thread is about 1500m, as 13:02 is not even close to "closing the gap".
In 2007, there was Alan Webb in the 1500m.
The fact is that Ingebrigtsens are not running faster than Europeans (Cram, Coe, Ovett) were 30 years ago, or runners like Nick Willis (1500m) and Chris Solinsky (5000m) this decade.
Actually, for me the top 20 in the 1500 is an even better indicator.
2007 4 out of top 20 Non-African
2008 3 out of 20
2009 4 out 20
Leap to:
2017 4 out top 20 N-Af
2018 8 out of 20
2019 9 out of 20!!
So Non-Africans are now almost 50-50 with Africans. Hmmmmm...
This is the problem with Rekrunner's arguments about why it took so long for westerners to break 27 minutes and why so few have broken 13 minutes. In the west the1500/mile is such a glorified event and many elite western milers don't try the 5,000m until they are well past their physical peak even though it would make more logic have stepped up in distance. Throw in the collapsing birth rates. Look at Matt Centrowitz, he should have stepped up two years ago but it is unlikely to do so for another two years, if at all.
1:46 is closing the gap when most of those athletes are under 23, several under 20, and one of them just turned 17 and world age group record holder. I recently posted a comment in another thread about the 800m junior top lists this season. For decades they've been dominated by Kenyans and Moroccans, but this year GB is leading the way and Canada has as many top juniors as Kenyans. Of course this might not be translated into the senior ranks, but all the indications are of a trend away from East African (in particular Kenya, which is the country getting tested) domination in both junior an senior. Just look at Monaco and other DL races this season, and you're seeing not just one, but two or three non-Africans in the top 5 or 6. If you took somebody from 2009 in a time machine and watched some of this seasons races, and they'd certainly notice this (even the most 'color blind'). Given the demographic changes between Europe and Africa over the last couple of decades, any objective fan from 2000 would confidently predict that by ANY non-African even competing in the DL or major finals would be an extreme rarity by now. Actually, more and more non-Africans are competing. I haven't got time to go through your selective samples of the GB 1500m times. Any fool can see that middle-distance running in GB right now hasn't been anywhere near as good as this since 1990. Whereas 800 and 1500m running in Kenya is being held up by one or two athletes, most of the rest aside from Tim aging and/or declining.
rekrunner wrote:
I'm denying that it is "particular".
Once again, "EPO doesn't work" are your words, not mine.
Your explanation of East African domination is too incomplete to be considered an explanation.
It would be naive to believe your uninformed allegations of East African blood doping in the 1980s.
Non-Africans are not closing the gap.
Jakob is one European, and not yet faster than Europeans of the 1980s, nor non-Africans like Willis and Solinsky.
1:46 is also not closing the gap.
Regarding depth in GBR:
Between 1985-1988, GBR had 13 athletes below 3:38
Between 2009-2012, GBR had 11athletes below 3:38
Since 2017, GBR had 11 athletes below 3:38.
Of all the events, East African men have dominated the least (measured by both quality and quantity) in the 800m/1500m.
Before getting too excited about Jakob closing the gap on East Africans, he should first create a gap on non-Africans of the 1980s, and non-Africans of this decade.
Coevett wrote:
-Are you really denying that doping is 'particularly rife' in East Africa???? That's even more insane than your belief that EPO doesn't work!!
-I've explained to you before about East African crosscountry domination in the 80's. John Ngugi was the first African to win the world cross country more than once, and then of course won Gold in Soul, so the best example of the 'take over' of East Africans. I'm sure you are aware that he was later suspended for evading doping controls. Other names from the 80's later were busted. Paul Kipkoech, another 80's star, died mysteriously at only 32. Those who say Ethiopians and Kenyans could not have been blood doping int he 80's are extremely naieve.
-NonAfricans are closing the gap. Times are getting faster in traditional countries such as GB and Aus/NZ, depth is getting bigger. Something like eight British guys have ran under 1:46 already this year. Ten years ago I don't think a single Brit did. Not even in the Golden Days did we have that depth. Then there are junior talents like Max Burgin, Kane Elliott, Ethan Hussey in GB, and similarly exciting talents in places like Australia. Ethan Hussey is only 16 and has ran 1:49/3:46 and 14:29 (the last on the road when he was 15). Jakob certainly is closing the gap on the best Africans, you can see that with every race. At 1500 he's only behind potatoe Tim now and getting nearer each time. Unless you mean the EPO peak era times and Kiprop, which kind of negates your point to any sane and intelligent person. In a well paced race Jakob would have ran 3:28 at Monaco.
Subway Surfers wrote:
This is the problem with Rekrunner's arguments about why it took so long for westerners to break 27 minutes and why so few have broken 13 minutes. In the west the1500/mile is such a glorified event and many elite western milers don't try the 5,000m until they are well past their physical peak even though it would make more logic have stepped up in distance. Throw in the collapsing birth rates. Look at Matt Centrowitz, he should have stepped up two years ago but it is unlikely to do so for another two years, if at all.
+1
Well said...and I agree that's always been the problem of rekrunner's arguments on that particular issue. But I'm sure when he makes his rounds this morning he'll try to discredit your points and give us another one of those convoluted, nonsensical responses of his.
Yes, good point by Subway.
David Moorcroft hadn't shown anything like Ovett's talent at 5000m let alone 1500m before he ran 13 minutes flat in 1982. And he only moved up to the 5000m because of the domination of Ovett and the rest at 1500m.
Most 'doublers' back then did the 800/1500 combination, because they were both way more prestigious than the 5000m. The 5000m was almost like a 1500m B race back in the 70s and 80s.
Of course, with the advent of EPO, 1500/5000 made a lot more sense.
And to return to Rekrunner's point about Europeans not closing the gap and GB middle-distance running being no better than any other post 80's era, just this year Josh Kerr broke Steve Cram's U23 1500 record, and Max Burgin broke Steve Ovett's 800 junior record. Ethan Hussey broke or tied a 5000m UK junior record that had stood since the 80's I think as well (and being 2 years younger).
And of course Charlie Grice overtook Steve Ovett in the 1500 all time list.
Coevett wrote:
Yes, good point by Subway.
David Moorcroft hadn't shown anything like Ovett's talent at 5000m let alone 1500m before he ran 13 minutes flat in 1982. And he only moved up to the 5000m because of the domination of Ovett and the rest at 1500m.
Most 'doublers' back then did the 800/1500 combination, because they were both way more prestigious than the 5000m. The 5000m was almost like a 1500m B race back in the 70s and 80s.
Of course, with the advent of EPO, 1500/5000 made a lot more sense.
And to return to Rekrunner's point about Europeans not closing the gap and GB middle-distance running being no better than any other post 80's era, just this year Josh Kerr broke Steve Cram's U23 1500 record, and Max Burgin broke Steve Ovett's 800 junior record. Ethan Hussey broke or tied a 5000m UK junior record that had stood since the 80's I think as well (and being 2 years younger).
And of course Charlie Grice overtook Steve Ovett in the 1500 all time list.
If there is an estimate of a number of guys willing to do 800/1500 who have a chance to make to finals in both, Olympics will schedule so heats and finals of 800m do not overlap with 1500m. If you know, 2012 Olympics 800/1500 overlapped. Recall Makhloufi goofed around in 800m because of schedule conflict with 1500m. 1972 Olympics, schedule did not allow, if I recall correctly for 1500m/5000m double. If schedule would have allowed with no overlap, I am sure Kipchoge Keino would have preferred racing 5000m instead of 3000mSC.
doubling = scheduling wrote:
If there is an estimate of a number of guys willing to do 800/1500 who have a chance to make to finals in both, Olympics will schedule so heats and finals of 800m do not overlap with 1500m.
As far as I know, they changed the timetable soon after the 88 Olympics, in other words, almost exactly at the same time as EPO appeared. The 800 and 1500 overlapped at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
I'm sure the existing timetable influences the training of young athletes. Why would you train for the 800/1500 if it's almost impossible to run both at a major championships?
You could argue that this itself has contributed to the decline of middle-distance running in non-Africa.
I think it's clear there has been a levelling of the playing field between the Africans and best non-Africans recently, and particularly amongst the up and coming athletes. That is not to say they are yet equal. However a trend is becoming observable. The question is how has this come about and what does it mean for the sport. I don't have the confidence that some do here that it demonstrates clean athletes are now competing with clean athletes. It could well be the reverse.
I remember a couple of years ago arguing with the likes of Coevett who claimed that 3:35 was around the clean limit for humans. This was based around the fact that no white runners were running any faster at that time and he also cited Herb Elliot and Jim Ryun or whatever. All the Africans were running 3:30
Fast forward to 2019 and now we have had 3 white guys run 3:30 this year. The Africans aren't running any slower.
Now the Europeans are competitive again because they are running faster, but the analysis is it's because the drug testing has increased...???
Very interesting assessments lol.