Sub-20 5k or bust!

Ok I compromised, sort of.

Took some time off for family obligations, did workout today.

Did 20:00 pace intervals on the treadmill, 1 min on, 1 min off, each fast speed entered 10 secs before the minute so that max speed was hit on the minute. Did 10 repeats with 10 jogs for 20 mins total. HR 160 at the end of last fast interval.

Then did 40 mins at 6mph and 0% grade, because I didn’t feel like I had worked out. HR about 150 throughout.

I don’t like the slow stuff—it makes me feel like I will get fasciitis, and I felt stiff when I finished.

Next workout I will start the fast intervals at the 48-second mark, rather than the 50-second mark.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Ok I compromised, sort of.

Took some time off for family obligations, did workout today.

Did 20:00 pace intervals on the treadmill, 1 min on, 1 min off, each fast speed entered 10 secs before the minute so that max speed was hit on the minute. Did 10 repeats with 10 jogs for 20 mins total. HR 160 at the end of last fast interval.

Then did 40 mins at 6mph and 0% grade, because I didn’t feel like I had worked out. HR about 150 throughout.

I don’t like the slow stuff—it makes me feel like I will get fasciitis, and I felt stiff when I finished.

Next workout I will start the fast intervals at the 48-second mark, rather than the 50-second mark.

Oh, c'mon. If you're serious about running 5k in 20', you have to get serious about sustaining the relevant pace. You want to do that on a treadmill rather than a track? Fine. But 1' on 1' off [even rebuilding during the 1' recovery] isn't about sustaining anything.

I believe 5 x 3' on, 3' off @ VO2 max pace is a classic Jack Daniels workout--how about you try that on the treadmill?

[true VO2 max pace would normally be a bit faster than 5k pace, but 5k pace seems like a reasonable place to start.]

Btw, since I'm nagging you to do a kind of workout you don't seem to like and power work doesn't come naturally to me, I figured I should work on my weakness and do a more power-oriented workout on the C2. And you know what? It wasn't power-oriented enough, because even though I did a series of 1' - 1:30 pickups with 4' rest, I never managed to do any of them hard enough to get any kind of lactic bite in my quads, so clearly the pickups were too long or the recoveries were too short. [Which is why when, with a little luck, I can get back to running, I will be doing repeats on a very steep, very short hill!]

Anyway, next time I'm ready to go for power on the C2, I'm planning to do random pickups during an open-ended piece with the goal of getting to and then [at least briefly] sustaining max power rather than pre-planning some particular distance/time/number of strokes.

as a semi-interested observer in this thread I was wondering why the classic 3x1 mile workout isnt referenced/used? is it pasee?

For someone targetting

entire post got truncated:

why not 3x1 mile workout?

goal 5K pace + :10s/mile

so target 6:35 , with 60s standing rest

the day you can do this workout is the day you can break 20

sit and kick wrote:

why not 3x1 mile workout?

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I think Sprintgeezer doesn't really want to do "normal" VO2max workouts. Or any other traditional workouts. Although, originally he was gonna just run a weekly time trial, and now seems to be considering other approaches, so who knows.

My go-to 5K workouts are 6 x 800 and 3 x mile at a bit faster than 5K pace (what I call "5K goal pace" ha!), with recovery jogs equal in duration to the reps.

A couple points of reference: At age 57, I could do 6 x 800 at 3:00 with 3-min jog recoveries, and raced 5K at 6:06 pace (18:58). At age 59, I did 3 x 1-mile at 6:05 with maybe 5 or 6 min recoveries, and raced 19:13 (6:11 pace).

I am serious about it, but not so serious that I am going to change my life to get it.

I am 99% sure I could get it no problem if I was really serious, but like I said I am doing this while keeping an eye on sprinting.

I am not sure why you think my “program” is not serious. It involves my interval idea, as well as the longer slow aerobic base run that was suggested.

I hate the treadmill, but right now it is infinitely more convenient for me than the track. If I had to go to the track to do my workouts, I would be doing sprint workouts, not 5k stuff. A large part of this was because it’s something I can do without having to go to the track. I have only so much time.

And yes, I do want to experiment with my interval program and see what happens. I am sure that I could get it if I followed a tried-and-true, proven program, but that’s not what I want to do. Like I said I only want to get sub-20, not 17:00!

The 800m repeat track workouts are appealing, I must admit. I find the treadmill way harder than the road or track. I know it makes little sense.

Treadmills are form of torture. Pretty sure there they have a few at Guantanomo Bay.

July 4–went to the U and the HS intending to do 800’s workout, but both tracks were locked up.

Back on the mill.

Fast intervals started at 48 seconds, felt fine, HR only around 155 at the end.

Then did 40 mins at 6mph, HR 148 at the end.

Today felt easy. It is super hot and humid innhere, just like I like it! I hardly drank anything, maybe 300 ml, and felt fine. Breathing felt relly easy, deep and slow the whole time. Maybe I am actually slowly building aerobic capacity, maybe I was just super-fatugued for my previous workout, or maybe a bit of both.

Looking forward to starting on 1:46 next workout, maybe I will do 1:45 instead.

I mean start on 45 seconds, not 1:45

Charlie wrote:

LOL THINK LIGHT WEIGHT HIGH REP == LSD == ENDURANCE

Keep HR around 60 percent of MHR for 80 percent of the time

Target the slow twitch fibers .

Ignore the temptation to speed up

Do this daily as much as you can for months

There is a ton of info on this approach aka HADD MAF LSD

Come On Entertain us!

Well...you tried Charlie.

Do you think that I’m getting no benefit from my 40 mins at HR 140-150?

Basically, I am doing a 40-minute slow run, augmented by some intervals. My form is not the same at 6mph as at 9 or 10, so I think the intervals are easential to remember and train the form required for sub-20..

And, I am trying for every 2nd day, or 3x/week.

Again I don’t know why, but my last workout seemed easy, especially my breathing, it seemed to be barely above resting. I attribute some of this to increasing aerobic capacity. I do believe that aerobic adaptation, at least early gains, can be had relatively quickly—and early gains are all I need.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Do you think that I’m getting no benefit from my 40 mins at HR 140-150?

Basically, I am doing a 40-minute slow run, augmented by some intervals. My form is not the same at 6mph as at 9 or 10, so I think the intervals are easential to remember and train the form required for sub-20..

And, I am trying for every 2nd day, or 3x/week.

Again I don’t know why, but my last workout seemed easy, especially my breathing, it seemed to be barely above resting. I attribute some of this to increasing aerobic capacity. I do believe that aerobic adaptation, at least early gains, can be had relatively quickly—and early gains are all I need.

No...I wouldn't say you are getting no benefit by running 40 mins at HR 140-150. But I do think you would do well with true high/low training where you did a good volume of very gentle training (maybe 6-6.5 mph) in addition to a small dose of quality...where you did the work to train your form etc...as you described.

It's just my opinion...but my feeling is that you are overrating form...and underrating aerobic development...as the ingredients for success at the 5K distance.

If you've never done a good volume of very gentle miles...ever...than you could have an enormous upside if you did.

But who knows? Nothing is for sure. All the best...

Thanks.

Remembering that I’m only trying to get 20:00, what is “a good volume of very gentle miles”?

Of course the answer is related to a person’s potential, their existing shape, and whatever else they are doing, physically. Given where I think I am, I have put it at 40min @ 6mph, every 2nd day.

Combined with the increasingly long intervals, can you say why you think that is inadequate? Not arguing, seriously asking.

I’m not emphasizing form, bit neither do I want to lose practice and form at 20:00 pace. I also can’t see that my interval stuff is excessive, ie to the detriment of the slow aerobic work. Can you provide more info on why you think I am overrating it?

I feel so good that I might start at the 42-second mark next workout.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Kyoto wrote:

How much does the Geezer weigh? Will Geezer be dropping any weight to break 20 minutes? How old is the Geezer? Does the Geezer still sprint? Will the Geezer resort to PEDs? Does the Geezer have a history of this, let us say a 17 minute best, for instance?

5’10” / 177lbs.

Did 18:30 treadmill maybe 10 years ago, did 10:00 2-mile in HS with room to spare so maybe 16:00 3-mile shape 35 years ago, if that means anything.

Just reading this thread,,,Sub 20 should be attainable for you based on these times and your height/weight.

A 10min 2-mile indicates some reasonable talent which may be hiding but has probably not disappeared.

Miles are what you likely need. Building up to a solid long run once a week is probably the key.

Hey Sprintgeezer...you are probably doing just fine following your instincts.

I went back and read the whole thread in order to avoid talking out my ass like I usually do...ha ha. You are younger than I realized...so sub-20 is a bit more doable than I first thought it was. Also, your times at younger ages show you have the "plumbing."

Rather than trying to persuade you to do anything different, I'll just offer this:

If you have ever taken the time to develop your aerobic foundation with a lot of easy running, you know there is a certain feeling to this sort of improvement. It's completely different from the improvement you feel from doing speed work...which is much more obvious. The improvement from long, easy running is slower and more subtle...but much more transforming. You get faster at every distance from 800m up, but you don't feel faster. You just find yourself going faster...not getting tired...having better staying power...feeling like you are breathing better. When you do "speed work"...you feel better form, better turnover, maybe more power. Since the effects of running hard come quickly, the response is much easier to see.

You might never have experienced the benefits of easy distance. So it's possible you are getting thrown off by the fact that you feel stiff and slow after jogging for 40 mins...when that's how it feels...and it's not a bad thing...especially when the aerobic system is underdeveloped. The fact that your heart rate is 140-150 bpm at 10 min miles at 0% on a treadmill leads me to believe you have huge room for improvement and could use at bit more volume at very easy effort levels.

Since you are a fast twitch guy by nature, you might not like slower training. But I'd be interested to know how you could do with a little more easy volume. If your current method doesn't get you where you want to go, maybe experiment with something different down the road.

Good luck.

Yeah, I'm just a young geezer :)

I do remember having been aerobically fit and doing 1-hr runs like they were nothing, but it was so long ago that I have forgotten.

I will say that I wasn't stiff and sore after my last workout--in fact, I feel like I haven't done much of anything. No soreness at all, no stiffness, no tweaks, nothing. Maybe that's a good indication that 6mph is in fact slow enough.

I agree that I have huge room for aerobic development. My HR's were actually down a bit this time, and I hopefully attribute that to the beginnings of aerobic capacity. My max HR is higher than normal, I can cruise along at 175bpm just fine. I would have thought that all the biking, rowing, and tennis I do would have improved it significantly, but apparently not. Running is where it's at.

I did feel more alert, more "oxygenated" today than normal, if that makes any sense. Weights today, then can't wait to do another running (treadmill) workout tomorrow. Sometimes I will be dead after an exceptional weight workout, but I will have to figure that into the results. I will probably know if I am totally fatigued.

Ha ha...yeah...if you're a geezer, I don't what that makes me.

Actually, sounds like you are responding well are on the right track.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Thanks.

Remembering that I’m only trying to get 20:00, what is “a good volume of very gentle miles”?

Of course the answer is related to a person’s potential, their existing shape, and whatever else they are doing, physically. Given where I think I am, I have put it at 40min @ 6mph, every 2nd day.

Combined with the increasingly long intervals, can you say why you think that is inadequate? Not arguing, seriously asking.

I’m not emphasizing form, bit neither do I want to lose practice and form at 20:00 pace. I also can’t see that my interval stuff is excessive, ie to the detriment of the slow aerobic work. Can you provide more info on why you think I am overrating it?

I feel so good that I might start at the 42-second mark next workout.

I think you are under-estimating how fast 20:00 min is for an older runner. For me at 62, it would be worth a 15:48, for a 60-year-old, its 16:05.

It's not world-class, but unless you are already an accomplished distance runner, it is stiff enough that it is very hard to achieve without some serious aerobic development.