Over-50 runners doing >50MPW?

A question, Dave, with regard to weight gain, over the years.

Do you find that your metabolism has slowed down, and that any junk you eat will put on pounds to your frame, or are you one of the lucky (unusual) individuals who has always stayed around the same weight?

In my case I used to weight around 68 kilos when I ran 1:50.49 for the Finchley '20' (1978) and then some 20 years later my weight had gone up to 83 kilos in Canada.

Since April, I have cut out coke and most sweets from my diet, and my weight has gone down to 77 kilos, (for 6.2 inches tall/1.87) - but I cannot get any lower than that.

My goal would be to be the same weight as Craig Mottram (Australia) who checks the scales at 72 kilos, for the same height as me.

_____________

Ghost,

Hope you don't mind if i butt in on the conversation, but the weight/height figures caught my eye. I'm 1.87 / 6'2" as well, and 8 months ago weighed exactly 83 kilos! Because of some health issues, I then decided to eliminate ALL deserts and (as much as possible without being a pain in the ass) simple sugars from my diet. I never drank pop/soda anyway, but i would have lots of fruit juices. Decided that my drinks would be coffee (black), tea (unsugared) and water. Rather than orange juice or apple juice i'll eat an orange or apple. Also increased just slightly my intake of vegetables and cut back just slightly on my intake of carbs. Added a few lean meats to my diet. But the biggest thing, i'm sure, was the sugar. I simply don't make exceptions on this one.

Over the course of the first two months i dropped down to 72 kilos / 160 lbs. without running a stitch. Exactly your goal. The great thing about this is that i've been canker sore free ever since after being plagued with these for most of my adult life.

Good to know that this is Mottram's height/weight. Now if i could just cut several minutes off my 5K time . . . .

Dave-

Tried your workout this morning but with 1 minute rest on the 6x4's. Man, 30 second rest? I was having a problem with 60 seconds, although it is hot and humid here in NJ. The 5x1's seemed like a walk in the park after the 4's.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Benji-saw the article in USATF mag. about you and Dr. Sandoval. I forgot how much of a race it was. Best wishes with your renewed priority for running, and in battling prostate cancer.

ghost wrote:

Dave:

Your case is an interesting one, because you have run high mileage for some 20 odd years (or longer) and are still around running 5.30 miles in races...and that is unusual, because the kind of intensity you have display usually results in injuries and psychological fatigue after about 10 years.

There is no such thing as psychological fatigue.

Injuries come and go. Ibuprofen and soft training surfaces

reduce down time.

Actually, Fred, the regular use of ibuprofen (and all NSAIDs — non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) has been shown to accelerate cartilege thinning over time. Glucosamine Sulfate . . . now there's a good friend!

No argument, however, on the soft surfaces.

[quote]Sodbuster wrote:

Benji, what's a good old Georgia-boy doing in CO?

Naw, Benji's like 20 something and lives in Atlanta. He took me on a run up Stone Mountain. This 54 year-old- Colorado guy must be someone else.

But serioulsy, I'm 56 and have no physical trouble running over 50 miles per week. It's the other stuff that gets in the way. (two teenage daughters, house, aging parent, in-laws.)

Tom

Tom aren't you retired and living in Cancun off the royalties from your Boston Marathon book?

Anyone just doing time-based runs, a la Lydiard, and letting the races fall where they will?

Assuming you do race.

Tom, yeah, "...the other stuff..." kind of sets up roadblocks to the "training" frame of mind. Two quick questions:

1) When you doing another book? (Boston was excellent - I reread parts of it all the time - usually at 2:00 a.m. when I'm wondering about my two teenage daughters...)

2) Going way back, did you ever run the old Asbury Park 10K? ...you know, down in Jersey? I could have sworn it was you I saw sitting on a curb mending a foot after the race.

Dave Hill wrote:

Malmo,

I'm not sure who you mean by "the" Dave Hill. It's a relatively common name. There was a top US golfer named Dave Hill, also one of the guitarists in Slade (I hasten to add that I was not a fan), and also I believe a top advisor to Tony Blair.....

This Dave Hill used to run for Sunderland Harriers way back in the 1980's and, since 1990, for Thames Hare & Hounds. Moved from London to Tucson a couple of years ago....

You're the other "the" Dave Hill. This is "the" Dave Hill I was speculating about:

Aching Bones wrote:

Anyone just doing time-based runs, a la Lydiard, and letting the races fall where they will?

Assuming you do race.

Yes. I wrecked my knee gardening last August and have been hobbling around since. But it's much better and I'm up in the vicinity of 11-12 hours of running a week now and will try to move up to 12-13. I'd been at 9-10 for much of the year. I rarely race in the summer and am not sure what I'll do come fall, but I think that laying in the base now is the way to start. Come August/September, I can do some faster stuff if I decide to do some racing.

Thanks, Malmo

I didn't remember the other "the" Dave Hill - it looks like he was around while I was taking an 8-year sabbatical from running during the 70's. I would love to have run as fast as he did over 800/1500 though !!

Glad you "enjoyed" the workout.

Blame my wife - she thinks up some real good ones. This morning we did the same session again, but 7x instead of 6x.

great fun....

As the name implies, 47, so getting close. Have been doing more mileage than 5-7 years ago. Now doing 60-65 mpw in prep for 10k, and will increase to frequent 70s and 80s for a fall marathon.

Being extra carefull about doing most running on soft surfaces, and not overdoing it on hard days. Typically I cut workouts about a rep or two below feeling very tired. Doing just enough speedwork (~mile pace) to keep sharp (~1 mile/week).

Hi Ghost,

Taipei sounds interesting. The nearest I got to there was the Beijing marathon in '84, which is where I met Benji.

The bunion surgery wasn't fun. I was in casts up to my knees on both legs, for 5 weeks. When they took the casts off, they discovered a bad infection to one of the wounds and immediately re-admitted me and put me on intravenous antibiotics. In all, I was on strong 'biotics for almost a month and for the next 2 years or so (in fact, up to mid-2004) I would break down with colds, etc every time I built up my training to a reasonable level (ie about 50mpw). My theory is that the drugs zapped my immune system somewhat and it took all that time to re-build. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience...?

I do remember Harry Clague and wondered what had happened to him. Paul Eales does quite a bit of coaching now - I used to see him down at the Kingston track in SW London...

A more recent example is Martin Rees - he ran close to 50 min 10-miler and 30 min something 10km as a 50 year old, but I heard he has now retired because of knee problems.

I don't get too many running-related injuries, possibly because I have a very low knee-lift and kind of scoot along, rather than bouncing up and down and coming down with a high impact. That's my theory anyway.....

Regarding weight gain: the only time I have gained a significant amount of weight was between 1972 and 1979, when I gave up running and only took sporadic exercise. I typically have weighed around 140 since I was 18 (I'm 5'9" and a bit). During my "off" period I went up to 180 and it was the weight gain that got me back into running, because I wanted to get back into shape.

My diet is a little different than it used to be before I got married. I used to eat anything going, but not too much junk food. Now we eat a low-fat, high carbohydrate, medium protein type diet. I eat lots of fruit and truck loads of pasta, a little chicken, tuna etc for protein. No red meat and limited dairy, except milk. I still have a sweet tooth, but try not to over indulge it. I also enjoy a beer or two, but nothing in excess. I still try to avoid 'junk' as much as possible.

My weight will vary by 4-5 pounds each side of 140, depending on what I'm doing running-wise.

Hope this helps....

Dave Hill wrote:

Thanks, Malmo

I didn't remember the other "the" Dave Hill - it looks like he was around while I was taking an 8-year sabbatical from running during the 70's. I would love to have run as fast as he did over 800/1500 though !!

Wouldn't we all?

Sodbuster wrote:

2) Going way back, did you ever run the old Asbury Park 10K? ...you know, down in Jersey? I could have sworn it was you I saw sitting on a curb mending a foot after the race.

I have no recollection of running in that race. I do remember mending on many a curb.

Tom

Dave:

Thanks for the response.

Your diet and training habits seem reasonable, and I was interested to read that you do most of your runs on roads - which I presume are either asfalt or concrete in Tucson. Do you think it makes a big difference whether you train on roads or soft surfaces for injury prevention?

The fact that you increased your weight from 140 to 180 pounds during your layoff is fascinating, because it proves what a good weight reduction exercise running can be.

It is interesting that you are exactly the same height as Paula Radcliffe (5ft9inches) yet I understand that Paula weighs around 120 pounds (correct me if I am wrong..). This means that either Paula is seriously thin, or that you (Dave Hill) are rather powerful for your height as an elite distance runner.

I would be interested on your thoughts, Dave, on the differences you perceive between the British club system in running (which I believe is the best in the world) and the American one, which is more low key and less intense?

And overall, where do you think the quality of your life is better, in Britain or the States? Of course the weather in Tucson is great, for the most part (at least it is dry rather than humid), but do you miss the club scene and pub scene in Britain. And as a man from the North East, it will be hard to match that kind of friendliness and matiness anywhere else in the world, one assumes.

Also, when you are not doing a buildup for a marathon with your two times a day training (1.5hrs plus 30 mins), what is the normal training routine you follow now, when running shorter races like 5k and 10k?

For over 50 runners, do you think it is better to run quality miles (with the risk of injury) or just jog around and do plenty of volume?

Also is stretching important, or overrated as a component for runners and older runners? How much do you stretch before or after runs?

Do you run year round, or take breaks from running at different times?

I have found that since turning 40 - anytime I try to run fast (which is 5:30 miles or faster) I get injured, and for this reason, I no longer compete as a master. Now I am happy to just jog 30 minutes 4 times a week, to stay in reasonable shape....but racing like you is out of the question....I think you have genetic gifts that most of us do not have, Dave.

The last serious race I ran was as a 41 year old in the Vets. A.C. 5 miles cc. at Wimbledon Common, in 1997, where I finished third behind Grenville Tuck (who ran 26:00) with me running 26:20 odd....but I managed to beat Keith Penny in that one ( and he was shortly to retire after that race!)...

At my age (49), I am happy to be able to get out and run a a little, as I have seen too many people get hurt and injured by the time they reach my age....or others become really slow as they age...like Mike Fuller (H.W.) and Ron Hill (who now takes about one hour to complete 10k races!)....sad...but real.

Hi Ghost,

I'll try to answer some of your questions;

Q. Do you think it makes a big difference whether you train on roads or soft surfaces for injury prevention?

A. I do all of my hard workouts on the road, but on my other runs, I run probably about 50/50 roads and dirt trails. I do like to get off road, when possible, and I do think that soft surfaces help prevent injury.

Q. I would be interested on your thoughts, Dave, on the differences you perceive between the British club system in running (which I believe is the best in the world) and the American one, which is more low key and less intense?

A. I agree with you that the British system is the best that I've ever come across. Most of the clubs over here aren't really running clubs in the British sense. I miss the inter-club competition and cameraderie that it generates. I haven't yet been to an open race here where there is even a team competition. I also miss events like the road relays, which don't seem to happen here.

Q. And overall, where do you think the quality of your life is better, in Britain or the States? Of course the weather in Tucson is great, for the most part (at least it is dry rather than humid), but do you miss the club scene and pub scene in Britain. And as a man from the North East, it will be hard to match that kind of friendliness and matiness anywhere else in the world, one assumes.

A. I think the quality of life here is better. After living in the London area for 15 years or so, with all the problems of expensive housing, traffic congestion etc., Tucson compares very favorably. Yes, the North East of England is known for its friendliness, but I have to say that Tucson is the friendliest place I have ever experienced. But I do miss the good old English pub from time to time.

Q. Also, when you are not doing a buildup for a marathon with your two times a day training (1.5hrs plus 30 mins), what is the normal training routine you follow now, when running shorter races like 5k and 10k? For over 50 runners, do you think it is better to run quality miles (with the risk of injury) or just jog around and do plenty of volume?

A. When not marathon training, I still like to keep a reasonable level of mileage - I just feel better in general that way. "Reasonable" could be anything from 50 to 75 mpw depending on how I feel and normally would be accomplished with one run per day. I don't like to miss days, unless I'm sick or injured. To be honest, I have never really trained specifically for a 5km. I have always tended to run my best at all distances, when doing marathon-type training, so I stick to what works for me. Regarding quality - I always try to keep a balance, with at least two quality sessions per week. On my steady runs, I tend to listen to my body more these days and only push if I really feel like it.

Q. Also is stretching important, or overrated as a component for runners and older runners? How much do you stretch before or after runs?

A. Everyone you talk to says you must stretch, especially as you grow older. I do hardly any stretching ! Immediately before a hard workout (ie after the warm up) I might do a couple of minutes stretching quads and hamstrings, simply because if I do get injured at all, it tends to be the hamstring. Other than that, I do nothing.

Q. Do you run year round, or take breaks from running at different times?

A. I don't believe in taking breaks. I might run easy for a week or two, but I don't take time off of running altogether, unless forced to by illness or injury.

Ghost,

It sounds like you were running pretty well into your early 40's. To finish so close behind Grenville in your last race is commendable. You don't say what the nature of your injuries are. Is it the same thing each time or different injuries ? I think an important part of being successful and having longevity in running is how you manage the inevitable injuries. Ron Hill, who has my greatest respect for what he achieved (and was actually a boyhood hero of mine) did himself no favours, in my view, by insisting on maintaining his 'streak' no matter what. There are some injuries that you just can't train through without causing lasting damage and I think that Ron overdid it. The big trick is to know which ones you CAN train through. My very simple rule is that if the pain from an injury gets worse during a run, then I stop. If it doesn't get worse, I keep going. Occasionally, I get it wrong and make a minor injury into a bad one, but mostly I seem to get through ok.

[Quote] At my age (49), I am happy to be able to get out and run a little...

As I said in an earlier post, age is just a number.....

Hope all this helps.

Dave

Dave:

Your comments are of interest.

1. You say that you like to maintain "at least two quality sessions per week" - and it would be interesting for us to learn what those quality sessions consist of?

Also, many older runners get injured when training on the track - do you find this happens with you too, or do you still do some track training?

2. Are there any key sessions (such as four times one mile on the track, or 8 times 400) which tell you what kind of shape you are in? And also, how much have you slowed over the years over different distances?

3. Do you play any other sports or cross train?

4. Why have standards (in general) dropped in Britain. Back when I was running for H.W. in the late 70's and finishing 10 mile road races around 52-53 minutes (52:40/Wimbledon '10', October 1978) I would finish quite far down the field (in the thirties etc..) because the front runners like Bob Holt etc...would be running in the 48-49 minute range. Now, perusing 'A.W.' I realize that were I running now, I would be winning many road races in Britain, or at least placing in the top 3....! yet in my day I was just considered a slightly better than average club runner (ran 15:17 for 5000 on the track on cinders at Wimbledon Park, August 1978).....I only 'scraped' into the H.W. team for the 'National Cross Country' at Leeds in 1978, and finished 250th in that one. My clubmate - Dave Clarke, was at the front of the field.

5. Do you think Britain is becoming a nation like the U.S with a lot of 'armchair' sport viewers, and as a consequence lowere standard overall....with an emphasis on jogging for fitness, rather than competitive running. Yet when I was running in the late 70's for H.W. I always worked fulltime and never ran more than 50-60 a week, and often less...?

6. How long do you think you will keep on running, Dave, and competing (the two are different)?

7. What do you think about Ed.Whitlock, the 75 year old British/Canadian, who ran 2:54 for the marathon at the age of 74 last year? Do you think he is a freak of nature, or that more old people are capable of running faster than they think?

8. Are you interested in American Pro sports (football, basketball, baseball) or do you think they are overrated and over hyped?

9. Lastly, it would be fascinating to read about how you organize your day around running, and your rest and meal patterns.

The feedback you provide is gratefully received.