I've been following skiing since before 2000 and have observed the development of many top US skier from their junior years on. Ben True isn't the argument that you think it is. It can be turned around because True really had no chance to make the Olympics in skiing (yes, he tried) even with his running talent. You are valuing running talent more than skiing talent. High school skiers' running results in cross country and track are almost always dabbling, not-that-serious side efforts based on ski fitness. The skiers that do spring track come in off doing minimal running during ski season. The ones that make it in skiing could have taken huge chunks off their track times if they had focused on running instead of skiing.
I don't buy it. There are tons of HS track runners who don't run a step or play basketball or something over the winter and go on to run 4:20 in the mile. A talented HS XC skier should be able, off of a winter of intense ski training and racing, to run decent times in track. But most don't because the talent isn't there in the 500 (out of 6500 who participate in HS) or so skiers who actually take it seriously.
Ben could absolutely been a US olympian in XC skiing. Anyone know why he gave up trying, or didn't really try in the first place?
As a point of reference, silver medalist Ben Ogden placed 7th in the merged results of the 2016 Vermont HS State Championship.
For some context, 1: the VT course at Thetford is extremely slow, 2: he was attending a ski school, so presumably was doing a lot of ski-specific training as opposed to 5k XC training, 3: the athletes that finished ahead of him had modest NCAA careers (mid/high 14s in the 5k).
I'm sure Ben could have run much, much faster in HS, but I do not believe he had nearly the talent for running that he had for skiing.
I've been following skiing since before 2000 and have observed the development of many top US skier from their junior years on. Ben True isn't the argument that you think it is. It can be turned around because True really had no chance to make the Olympics in skiing (yes, he tried) even with his running talent. You are valuing running talent more than skiing talent. High school skiers' running results in cross country and track are almost always dabbling, not-that-serious side efforts based on ski fitness. The skiers that do spring track come in off doing minimal running during ski season. The ones that make it in skiing could have taken huge chunks off their track times if they had focused on running instead of skiing.
I don't buy it. There are tons of HS track runners who don't run a step or play basketball or something over the winter and go on to run 4:20 in the mile. A talented HS XC skier should be able, off of a winter of intense ski training and racing, to run decent times in track. But most don't because the talent isn't there in the 500 (out of 6500 who participate in HS) or so skiers who actually take it seriously.
Ben could absolutely been a US olympian in XC skiing. Anyone know why he gave up trying, or didn't really try in the first place?
I can't remember the podcast source for this, but I heard Ben talk about how he moved to Idaho to focus on XC skiing (I think it was a gap year in his college). He wanted to go to the world cup in XC skiing, but he said he struggled with XC skiing technique. And struggling with the technique made him like running more.
Yes, he's the top sprinter in the world for XC skiing and has massive leg muscles. He'd break 50 no problem and with some training prolly go down to like 47 high
I can’t tell if you’re serious. A guy that can win 50K XC ski races and has 47 speed, would pretty much be Superman.
Eric Heiden won all five speed skating gold medals at the 1980 Winter Olympics, from 500m to 10,000m. Is that also "the most supcious performance ever"?
Not sprint through 50k and with ease though. Im just curious why he MUST not be doping?
I've been following skiing since before 2000 and have observed the development of many top US skier from their junior years on. Ben True isn't the argument that you think it is. It can be turned around because True really had no chance to make the Olympics in skiing (yes, he tried) even with his running talent. You are valuing running talent more than skiing talent. High school skiers' running results in cross country and track are almost always dabbling, not-that-serious side efforts based on ski fitness. The skiers that do spring track come in off doing minimal running during ski season. The ones that make it in skiing could have taken huge chunks off their track times if they had focused on running instead of skiing.
I don't buy it. There are tons of HS track runners who don't run a step or play basketball or something over the winter and go on to run 4:20 in the mile. A talented HS XC skier should be able, off of a winter of intense ski training and racing, to run decent times in track. But most don't because the talent isn't there in the 500 (out of 6500 who participate in HS) or so skiers who actually take it seriously.
Ben could absolutely been a US olympian in XC skiing. Anyone know why he gave up trying, or didn't really try in the first place?
Yes he did try. This was extensively documented. He even had a blog on fasterskier.com. He took a year to train for skiing exclusively and it didn't work out, so that's when he went all in on running. He ended up overtrained skiing that year. He said that if he only wanted to run, he would have enrolled at Stanford instead of Dartmouth. Here's an article:
True's top US ranking ever on the FIS points list was 12th American male on the distance list (as opposed to sprint list where he was 34th) mid-season in 2007/2008. I know three guys personally in my town ranked above him on that particular list. He ended up the 2007/2008 season 19th ranked American on the distance list.
At the HS level, aerobic contributions are much lower since most HS skiers have pretty awful technique/neuromuscular pop. The main differentiator at that level is raw strength/power. I ran 4:40, but would get beat by a 200lb kid who couldn't break 5:40 in the mile on my team.
FIS globally governs skiing and snowboarding and oversees over 7,000 events annually in Alpine, Cross-Country, Ski Jumping, Nordic Combined, Freestyle, Snowboard, and more.
Klaebo is deservedly receiving the cross country headlines in these Olympics. But I'm glad Frida Karlsson is finally putting it all together on the women's side.
She burst on the scene 6 or 7 years ago as a tall teenage talent who shockingly upset Therese Johaug in a distance race. Johaug was all but unbeatable at that stage. She was coming off a suspension that she blamed on lip balm. Any victory over Johaug felt like deserved outcome for the sport.
Karlsson had lots of variance since that point and was not nearly as good as expected at Beijing 2022 where Johaug dominated. Johaug retired briefly then came back a couple of years ago. I was worried she would be the major player in these Olympics.
Fortunately Johaug retired last spring. She took a poke at Karlsson recently, saying there was no evidence of improvement. Karlsson has responded with a level here that Johaug likely could not have matched. During today's broadcast they said Karlsson credits her big jump in performance to training with Klaebo, who told her to calm down her training sessions, that building a base was more important than skiing fast during training.
“…as well as probably the best runner on the world cup with a 8:14 3k pr”
Amundsen is a good runner for sure but countryman skier Deidrich Toenseth is better, having represented Norway at the European XC (Running) Championships.
I'm seeing a lot of people talk about vo2 max, anaerobic power etc.. but isn't this guy also an incredibly skilled skiier? I think we talk down the technical ability of skiing and just see it as running with 2 planks on your feet and some poles
If you want to Nordic ski in one of the 19 D1 colleges and Universities in the US good luck, there are maybe 20 to 30 spots a year for Americans. For kids targeting NEPSAC schools it usually means making Junior Nationals and 4 years of club skiing, 400 - 500 hours of year round training, and a budget of 10 to 15 k a year for club coaching, equipment, race fees and travel. Maybe even throw in a PG year at a ski school like SMS, GMVS, or Holderness.
I love the dude and that was crazy to watch him running up that hill but I don't think the chances are strong that he's a better endurance athlete than Jakob.
I don't have highly accurate stats to back this, but a quick Google search yields results of around 600M+ people participate in running the world annually vs 200M+ in all forms of skiing. Basically, I'm trying to boil this down to 3x (minimum) the competition in running, probably way higher. I consider Jakob to be like the Steph Curry of distance running. He changed the game. And to do that in a sport that has been widely contested for like-a-gazillion-years is incredibly unlikely, almost unfathomable.
Athletics (running) is accessible by just about anybody in the world. How many East African dudes have attempted cross country skiing? I'm not saying that East Africa is the center of the endurance universe. But the top XC skiers don't even have to worry about them. Yeah, East Africans have been losing distance events in track in recent years, but they still dominate cross country.
That's just because Western became more cunning at training methods. Add to this their favorable conditions (money, support with Marks, managing).
Jakob, Hocker, Hobbs would not have done anything without their conditions.
I might add that there is an event in skiing called "supersprint" which is a 100m race (freestyle/skate technique) it's not a part of the Olympics, World Championsships or World Cup, but more of an exhibition/"showrenn" (showrace). They've hosted a couple of those races in the Bislett stadium during winter.
Klæbo did 11.38 in the 100m in 2017. But the current world record holder is Ludvig Søgnen Jensen. He did 11.56 in 2013, 11.29 in 2017, and finally 11.03 in 2017.
(The world record for women is 12.45 by Marte Nordlunde)
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
If you want to Nordic ski in one of the 19 D1 colleges and Universities in the US good luck, there are maybe 20 to 30 spots a year for Americans. For kids targeting NEPSAC schools it usually means making Junior Nationals and 4 years of club skiing, 400 - 500 hours of year round training, and a budget of 10 to 15 k a year for club coaching, equipment, race fees and travel. Maybe even throw in a PG year at a ski school like SMS, GMVS, or Holderness.
I don't buy that at all. Maybe at a few big programs (UVM, Dartmouth, etc), but the NESCAC schools are largely the same as would be on D3 XC/Track rosters. Good kids, but the talent pool in XC skiing is so shallow there isn't much competition for these spots. To be clear, I think it's great. Competing in college is awesome and worth doing regardless of how fast someone is.
How do we settle all of this. Rojo/Gault, can you get someone from fasterskier on the podcast (Kershaw?) who's knowledgeable about all of this? Or maybe Ben True? Watching Klaebo destroy everyone, especially that sprint, makes it look like there really isn't any true world-class talent in XC skiing. How good of a runner would he have been? What's the deal with the talent pool in the US?
I'm seeing a lot of people talk about vo2 max, anaerobic power etc.. but isn't this guy also an incredibly skilled skiier? I think we talk down the technical ability of skiing and just see it as running with 2 planks on your feet and some poles
I'm an okay XC skier with a long running background. I also love to run hills, was always my favorite workout.
I can ski up a steep hill at a good clip, not like him, but I can attest to the nuance involved. The limits of your grip change as the terrain and conditions change. Imagine running, but if your back foot went 1mm too far back you slip and faceplant. It's a very fine line between grip and no grip. How you put your ski into the snow makes a huge difference too, you kinda push a bit more down than when running.
When you start to use your poles too, it's incredible how much energy that consumes. You consume oxygen so much faster. Normally I'd do a 45 minute run and think nothing of it. A 45 minute ski makes me feel like I'm in a huge caloric deficit.
You're also balancing on a tiny plank on one foot the entire time, with minimal help from your back foot.
If you took an incredibly athletic person and told them to ski up a steep hill on some fishscales with no practice or experience, they would struggle.
A lot of the Minnesota greats going back a couple of generations also cross country skied in high school. Bob Kempainen (his brother was on the US Olympic team in 1976). Add Joe Klecker and the Heath brothers. Kara Goucherk also skied as did Carrie Tollefson.
These sports do not translate 100% and anymore the top athletes are specializing at an early age.
And as far as comparing a country of 5 million with an entire continent, then why has Norway hit so far above its weight over the past 50 years in running? From Waitz and Kristiansen (latter of whom skied in the Olympics as a 19 year old--what a lousy athlete from such a weak country! (say the trolls) to the Jakob his sibs, and many other top runners?
That's what we are saying he pretty much is superman. If he focused on track, he would easily be on the top.
That he’s that good at running is baseless. He hasn’t even competed in a fun run yet. If he has the talent to be the best distance runner in the world, he would be a runner and not an XC skier.
I am not sure what you mean by the talent pool being shallow. In D1 skiing, the Western (Colorado, Utah, Montana State, Denver, UAF etc) league is 75% euros. Utah is where you transfer if you have a breakout year at another D1 School. Same with Northern Mich, and Michigan tech. In the EISA Dartmouth, UVM, and to an extent Middlebury and UNH are incredibly selective, to ski for Dartmouth you have to have finished top 10 at Junior Nationals, UVM is 50% foreign. Middlebury has world cup skiers too. That leaves Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, St Lawrence, St Mikes and Williams. For those spots (like 1-2 per year per team per gender) you need to be at the top in the US from one of the ski producing areas like New England, Minnesota, Steamboat, Bridger, Sun Valley, Lake Tahoe). I dont think you have any idea what it takes. There are less skiers in development but there are equally less places for them to land as a college skier. How many D3 track programs are there out there? Probably 500-600 so the odds are not the same at all.
