If Lagat breaks Scott's American record should it be marked with an asterisk?

What BA wants, if I am understanding him, is an American System record to go along with the American record. Or as he would have it an American record and then an asterix beside it if the athlete wasn't a product of the American system as he has defined it.

Similarly some might want to have record category called "bald runners with size 9 feet".

I am happy and proud that such a great runner would choose of his own volition top become an American and I welcome him. I hope he sets a few ARs!

The first sentence of my previous post brought to your attention that since international rules would prevent Lagat from running for the US in Athens, there was absolutely no reason to use the line "a guy who changed citizenship before last year's olympics but for some reason didn't feel the need to be a real american and run for his new country".

You admit yourself it is completely irrelevant and it only diminishes your (virtually non-existant) case to bring it up.

You also seem to be in a downward spiral as to your definition of what it means to be a true USAnian. I can't see any logic to your concept that one year of a US high school means more to an athlete's development than 4 - 5 years of the NCAA system. Just because you arbitrarily define it, does not make it so without justification. That is why it is of relevance how many 'home-grown' stars were developed by the high school versus the university system.

For a country that bills itself as a great global melting pot and second to none in most fields of endeavour, to say that the fact there are many foreigners in the NCAA means that USAnian runners training and competing against them are not real USAnians seems a bit contradictory to this Canuck. Maybe that's just your own domestic psychosis at work.

David Morris was essentially a non-entity on the US national scene before he headed off the Japan. A few years there and he sets a national record. You still have not explained logically why that is ok, but someone who was a solid university runner and developed into an Olympic silver medalist in the US is not.

On a bit of a tangent, should all those Kenyans who went through St Patrick's not be eligible for Kenyan records since Coach Brother Colm is Irish?

Speeve wrote:

I'm not really sure about all the rules, but how long does it take to become an American citizen?

USAnian citizenship is like a McDonalds drive-through. Just pull up to the microphone, place your order and pick up your passport at the window. Plan well and you can pick up your Canadian citizenship across the border later in the afternoon.

Geeze! Don't you guys know anything about your own system before you go posting about it on a message board?

Why should they run in an American H.S. one year?

BA makes this rule for the simple reason that Lagat, KK, etc DIDN'T run one year in H.S. If Bernard Lagat had in fact run one year... then BA would probably make the rule two years.

Dang this argument is stupid. If he legally gained US citizenship, then he's a citizen. Yes, he's lived here a long time, but I don't even need that for my argument. Think back to settling America. A guy, from Germany let's say, who is 39 years old, hasn't lived a day in America, comes here and is suddenly American. Now, you have Lagat, who lived here 10 years, gained US citizenship, but now he has to be "labeled" as "not quite a citizen." Completely ridiculous. I think the whole argument stems from jealousy.

??? -

that's race/ethnicity not national origin. we're talking citizenship (past and present), not whether someone is black/white/green/purple. i fully realize that what i said has some exceptions, however i'm not writing - nor do you want to read - a law review article on what constitutes state action for purposes of equal protection and where the narrow exceptions are.

while i suspect you are merely being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, i'll still entertain you. affirmative action today is an extremely narrow channel in which state actors can "discriminate" and it has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing.

brettman10k wrote:

Dang this I think the whole argument stems from jealousy.

I disagree with you. I think it stems from stupidity. Lets argue about it.

If a homeshcooled kid who never competed in high school, or college (and never even went to college) trained without a coach for a long time, and ran an 27:08 for 10,000m would you not cosider that an American Record either?Since when did an American Record mean a product of the American system? What do you even mean by American system? Every person comes up in a different way. Some start running early, some late.What the heck is your point?

BA wrote:

nope, KK shouldn't have the record either. training himself or just having an american coach doesn't make you a product of the american system.

but that makes me a "racist" to most people...

Depends. Did he ever eat at McDonalds? That's the new rule now, we changed it again.

If we're playing by the rules of the USATF, IAAF, and Constitution, Lagat should be trading his Olympic Silver for an American Record in the 1500 (the 3:27.40 he ran in Zurich).

No Offense wrote:

Depends. Did he ever eat at McDonalds? That's the new rule now, we changed it again.

Classic

Actually, I think that by Olympic rules he was eligible to run for Kenya in the Olympics. He held a Kenyan passport, and Kenya named him to their team.

I think that the IOC leaves it up to the national organizations to determine their own exact eligibility rules. By KENYAN rules he shouldn't have been eligible, but at that point the Kenyan organization didn't know that he wasn't eligible by their own rules. It was, however Kenya's responsibility to determine this.

If Lagat knew that Kenya didn't allow dual citizenship (which I would imagine he must have) then he was dishonest, and acted immorally (by my standards). The people he fleeced, however, were the Kenyan government, and athletic organization--NOT the IOC or the other non-Kenyan olympic competitors.

That's my take.

No Offense wrote:

brettman10k wrote:

Dang this I think the whole argument stems from jealousy.

I disagree with you. I think it stems from stupidity. Lets argue about it.

That's not an argument, it's a personal attack. It's an indication that you can't defend the merits of your claim.

??? wrote: Not if they were BORN here. You dig?

so that's the criteria - being BORN here? i was born in OKINAWA while my parents were serving in the United States armed forces, both of whom, were NOT born in the US. am I eligible to be an american record holder?

Had some myself wrote:

If Lagat knew that Kenya didn't allow dual citizenship (which I would imagine he must have) then he was dishonest, and acted immorally (by my standards).

That's my take.

Yes, and ustaf has no obligation to reward his questionable behavior.

so you're starting to see the trouble with making a new rule. there are plenty of "americans" who are born on miliary bases overseas, are the kids of diplomats, kids of businessmen, kids of contractors, etc. may have spent nothing more than a few vactions in the states.

it's too hard to come up with a rule that isn't hazy or difficult to apply. american citizen is easy. you have the piece of paper, you're in. getting into all this other stuff becomes just too darn difficult. unless there's a huge influx of recently naturalized citizens running record breaking times or close to them (rather unlikely), it's not all that difficult to figure out who the fastest of whatever category you want is. just check the descending order list for someone born in the US and, voila, there's your natural born real 'merican record holder.

Asterix wrote:

Speeve wrote:

I'm not really sure about all the rules, but how long does it take to become an American citizen?

USAnian citizenship is like a McDonalds drive-through. Just pull up to the microphone, place your order and pick up your passport at the window. Plan well and you can pick up your Canadian citizenship across the border later in the afternoon.

Geeze! Don't you guys know anything about your own system before you go posting about it on a message board?

The INS is unable to renew a Greencard in less than a year, I know of people who've waited 5 years for citizenship. If you first get a Greencard and then decide to apply for citizenship you have to wait 5 years before you can even apply. If you marry an American citizen you have to wait (2 years I think) before you can apply for citizenship.