Dave Bedford set the 10K world record in July 1973 at the British AAA.
Dave Bedford set the 10K world record in July 1973 at the British AAA.
Jake and Zane did many mistakes, because they had too much motivation. The first accommodation in Kenya, immediately after the World CC Championships of Mombasa (March 2007) was in the training camp of Shaheen, so I know very well the situation, since I was with Shaheen and his training group every day.
When they say trained with Shaheen only twice per week, we have to explain that never they could follow the full session, but only a part of it. For example, if the training of Shaheen was 10 times 600m in 1'30" with 1'30" recovery, I put some athlete for running 5 times alternating the tests (so, with recovery 4'30"), dividing the athletes in two group, in order to have always somebody together with Stephen (Shaheen). In this case, sometimes the twins ran 5 times the first 500m of every 600m, in 1'15".
The same about long run : they never trained with Stephen when there was long run fast, but when there was long run at medium speed, that for them was already high speed.
They had to face two problems : the first regarded their current level (in Mombasa Jake had 45 athletes ahead him), the second their adaptation in altitude, that needed long time.
The hypermotivation became, some times, a problem : both of them didn't care about small physical problems, not giving the right recovery to their body, and for that reason they faced several injuries in their career.
On the other side, they were "adopted" by Kenyans, and this fact gave them the best stimuli for believing in their choice of life. I remember one race of 1500m in Kitale, when Zane won in 3'50" defeating all the Kenyans (of course of second level), with all the crowd pushing him, happy that a "white" (seen as an alien, if runner...) could fight and defeat some local runner.
Believe me : they didn't do the most "perfect" training, and didn't have the most "perfect" behavior, and didn't chose the most "perfect" way of living : but, without those choices, and without their mistakes, NEVER could be at the same level of today.
You have nobody to compare them to in order to make that statement. If you took Ryun or Lindgren there or any other white teen phenom they would also be shat right out the back of the group to start.
Fascinating. Thanks Renato.
Renato Canova wrote:
Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.
Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.
And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).
Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Yeah, Rupp has had a lot of continuity at altitude.
Why does anyone listen to this fraud, this idiot who claims things such as EPO not working for Kenyans and Ethiopians etc. Yeah, that's why they run away and hide from testers out of season and out of competition because they're clean. That's why out of the few who are tested under those circumstances a disturbing number provide some less than natural results. How's Aden doing? Politics helping that sob out just like they help the "Rat" here.
Sure, lots of talent in E. Africa. But take away the rampant and politically protected drug use and they lose over half of their world class athletes. And bald face liars like Canova lose their meal ticket.
Sir,
Your disrespect towards Canova is sad, because the Italian guru is a proven world class coach with impeccable ethics.
Shalom.
Finkelstein
Interestingly when Jake was 43 at the Junior WCC, buried even farther back in the 80s were Matt Hughes and Mak Daddy.
So if Jake isn't that talented what does that say about them?
stop it renato wrote:
You have nobody to compare them to in order to make that statement. If you took Ryun or Lindgren there or any other white teen phenom they would also be shat right out the back of the group to start.
okay, thanks coach...lol
without continuity at altitude wrote:
Interestingly when Jake was 43 at the Junior WCC, buried even farther back in the 80s were Matt Hughes and Mak Daddy.
So if Jake isn't that talented what does that say about them?
Well Makhloufi obviously didn't have Jama to hold his stop watch in those days.
douglas burke wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:
Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.
Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.
And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).
Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Galen Rupp trains in Portland which is basically sea level (Elevation 50 feet) and he has run 26:44 for 10000 and while he has not run a fast marathon yet, he has placed high or won on all 4 occasions and has beaten many with much faster times, maybe he is an exception to the rule, but lots of Women have shown they can run fast marathons including the World Record holder Paula Radcliffe (In a mixed race, paced by a man Simon Lopuyet, she ran 2:15).
This is an interesting point. Salazar is well-known, even infamous, for leaving no stone unturned. So why are they living in coastal Oregon instead of, say, Alamosa or Abuquerque?
Renato Canova wrote:
I see that the most part of posters didn't understand the point. We are not discussing the level of the performances of the twins comparing it with what other athletes were able to do in the past. We discuss their current level, considering their starting point as talent, that was nothing exceptional, how their results in WCCCh clearly show.
While juniores (and already training in Kenya from one and half year), Jake had PB of 3'54" - 8'24" and 14'14", and Zane of 3'50"6 in 1500m. They had a lot of not African runners in front of them during the World Cross Country Championships in Mombasa 2007. Nobody, in the history of Athletics, starting from that level, was able to run 13'13" - 27'28" and under 1 hour.
This is the point, and I strongly believe that, without staying and training in altitude, their results were not possible.
About the great runners of NZ in the past, Walker was able to run in 3'32" when 22, Dixon at the same age won bronze in Olympics in Munchen and ran 3'33", and Quax represented the Country in Commonwealth Games 1970.
And, about Galen, he was already able to run, as junior, in 3'44" - 7'49" - 13'44" and 28'15", showing a big difference in the basic talent.
So, the answer to the quote can be only one : NO, without altitude they could not run as fast as they can today.
"No,without altitude they could not run as fast as they can today" Well..... That can never be proved, because we don`t have the other scenario if they had been correct trained at sea level. It will always stay as a wild guess. The real fact is that a runner with correct individual training will reach his/her potential with training at sea level. At sea level it`s always possible to hold the EXACT very best individual training pace at every kind of session, even at the long special run.
the real question is how fast were the brojos
Quite a bit of bull in that Deadspin piece. For example, nobody's in a Kenyan high school at 30. Majority finish at 18 or 19. 20 is pushing it.
This is overthinking. If a guy like Solinsky could run faster than almost all Africans will ever do over 5-10k without altitude, then it's obvious that God makes some people good at running and some people not, for some period of their life...most of the good ones are good right away some of them later in life but most runners never get there...the air you breath has nothing to do with that..like someone mentioned that some world class runner breathed cigarette smoke instead of altitude air while running 60 in the half marathon.
Zany Tactics wrote:
They were already very good. They didn't need to move to Africa to progress like they have though.
The only event they are actually ahead of NZ athletes from 40 years ago is in the half Marathon.
You mean apart from Zane's NZ 10,000m and 10km road records??
High Country wrote:
Yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make it to ...
3:29.66 for 1500m (Nick Willis)
3:49.4 WR and 3:49.08 for the mile (John Walker)
13:12 WR for 5000m (Dick Quax)
27:41 for 10000m (Dick Quax)
... without "continuity in" altitude.
You just made Renato's point. Other than 3:29, those are mediocre times for top Kenyans and Ethios.
Yes, and besides running slightly faster than Quax did for 10K 40 years ago, the Robertson twins have not run these times WITH their altitude training.
Renato Canova wrote:
Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.
Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.
And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).
Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Without getting into your statement about continuity in altitude Renato - a couple of clarifications:
At World Juniors in 2007 Jake was a genuine 17 year old against 18 and 19 year olds (and probably older as i am sure you know that many countries particularly Kenya and Ethiopia dont follow the age rules as well as they should...)
In 2011 - Jake was running very comfortably in front of the second bunch approx 18-30th place (large group) when he was clipped/tripped and fell very heavily, bruising his hip losing 20 odd places and then fading over last 4k with injury. It was a remarkable run considering. Zane started very very fast and was at the back of that bunch when Jake fell but then also faded in latter half and he was much more of a 1500m guy then before extending to longer distances in the last 5 years. Just looking at the finishing place and times to teh winner does not tell the whole story...
Kiwi brother wrote:
KiwiBird wrote:
Quax, Dixon, Walker did same time or faster 30-40 years ago without altitude in the 5000m
+ 100 % :)
Actually only Quax (and Blincoe) ran faster... and the Robertson's last season of 5000m racing was nearly 4 years ago - pretty sure they dont consider themselves 5000m runners any more...
YMMV wrote:
The twins are faster over 5K than Pre, Dixon, Walker, Coghlan, Coe, Ovett, one second off of Quax. Faster over 10000 than all of them and also Dick Tayler. The only guy decisively faster was Moorcroft, and for only a brief time over 5000. The 5000 is the lower end of their pwerformance curve but they leave at least the '70s guys behind.
And of course they are much faster the longer they go. At least one of them should be successful in the marathon, around 2:06-7, i.e. faster than anyone in the '80s.
What they have done is remarkable when you consider the drought in NZ before them.
Agreed. And they still have a few years left in them yet
nzrunner wrote:
Zany Tactics wrote:
They were already very good. They didn't need to move to Africa to progress like they have though.
The only event they are actually ahead of NZ athletes from 40 years ago is in the half Marathon.
You mean apart from Zane's NZ 10,000m and 10km road records??
Yeah he really blew that record away.... Quax wasn't even a 10k guy.
No comparison in their championship records either. Quax was up there fighting for medals and actually approaching his best times in big races.