Allright Letsrun - Who wins, Ryan Hall 2007 or Galen Rupp in 2017

Rupp wins. Like Rupp, Meb's PR is much slower too & he's cleaned up Hall plenty.

Rupp wins if:

He's remotely near Hall later race.

Hall wins (maybe) if:

The field's loaded with the best in a fast run... AND Rupp proves he cannot run a 2:06 or better (he hasn't, but we don't know that he can't).

Midwest ponds wrote:

Half marathon record relevant?! To what? The 1/2 marathon championships?! Ok... I agree it's an amazing time but sadly not an important event. Hall's 2:06 is his best race. Ever.

The 2:05 (2:04:58) he ran at Boston wasn't legal either.

I don't get what you're talking about

Raysism wrote:

Hall has the American record in the half and, but for a late career nationality change, the marathon. Those seem pretty relevant to the discussion.

No. It is a very important event, and is more indicative of how great a half marathoner will be at the marathon level than the 10k event.

Adola: half marathon: 59:21. Marathon: 2:03 ( He has only run 1 marathon)

Bedan Karoki: Half Marathon: 59:23, Marathon: 2:07 ( he has only run 1 marathon). Btw, His 10000m time is 26:52!

Ryan Hall half marathon time: 59:43, Marathon time: 2:04

Wilson Kipsang: half marathon time: 58:59, Marathon time: 2:03

Kipchoge: half marathon time: 59: 25, Marathon time: 2:03

Mary Keitany : Used to own the half marathon record, marathon time: 2:17

Rupps Half marathon time: 60:30, marathon time; 2:09

As you can see, fast half marathoners usually become fast marathoners. Unless rupp can get his times down to 2:06, he will not be able to compete with the up and coming africans like Adola and Karoki. They do not muck around with slow paces. They blaze.

The point is, an in form hall would run the breaks off of an in form Rupp.

Yeah, Rupp can win Boston and now Chicago( it's slow now) year after year, because of the weak fields and slow courses, but up against TRUE fast marathoners, he stands no chance at this point in his career. Kipchoge toyed with Rupp in Rio, while rupp and Lilesa were barely keeping up. But Adola nearly busted Kipchoge arse in Berlin. You see the difference?

I like Rupp, and he could possibly get down to 2:07, but lets be honest about his true ability. He is not in the ball park of Hall or KK, and that is just the truth.

Rupp won bronze & Chicago- but isn't in the ballpark of Hall or KK. Yea- ok. In those same races, Rupp would've beat Hall.

Yes...... wrote:

Rupp won bronze & Chicago- but isn't in the ballpark of Hall or KK. Yea- ok. In those same races, Rupp would've beat Hall.

Meb won a SILVER in the marathon and won Boston and New York, and he never ran lower than 2:08, and he wasn't in the ball park of KK of Hall at running fast times.

You really think Rupp is in the ballpark of KK? 4 time chicago marathoner winner, london marathoner winner, and set a WR while beating the great Haile and Paul Tergat, in one of the greatest marathons of all time? Also, he broke the WR twice, and was the first man to break 2:06, and the first man to break it twice.

Are you really saying that?

Yes...... wrote:

Like Rupp, Meb's PR is much slower too & he's cleaned up Hall plenty.

Hall was 2-1 vs. Meb in his (Hall's) five year prime (2007-2011).

We will know once Rupp runs a thon under these conditions...

Under 60 degrees with little humidity

No significant head wind

Flat course

2:02-2:06 capable competitors who are attempting to run that fast

He hasn't had all of these conditions met yet. Once Rupp does I think we can evaluate him against Hall whom had this conditions met a number of times.

Should have said fast course and big flat. Boston is certainly not flat but the downhill makes it fast. Especially with a hurricane tailwind :)

"Not flat"

Basically he needs to run London this spring and then we compare.

vkvkcjcjcj wrote:

We will know once Rupp runs a thon under these conditions...

Under 60 degrees with little humidity

No significant head wind

Flat course

2:02-2:06 capable competitors who are attempting to run that fast

He hasn't had all of these conditions met yet. Once Rupp does I think we can evaluate him against Hall whom had this conditions met a number of times.

Totally agree.

I just wish we could see what 2011-2014 Rupp would've done in this kind of race. Everyone here just assumes that Rupp could run 2:06 in fast conditions, but I'm not sure 2015-2017 Rupp has done anything to indicate that's a slam dunk. He hasn't set a non-marathon PR in over three years..

2011-2014 Rupp on the other hand, could have been our greatest marathoner ever (though I'm sure he's plenty happy with the 10000m Olympic medal and AR he got in this timeframe...).

Raysism wrote:

vkvkcjcjcj wrote:

We will know once Rupp runs a thon under these conditions...

Under 60 degrees with little humidity

No significant head wind

Flat course

2:02-2:06 capable competitors who are attempting to run that fast

He hasn't had all of these conditions met yet. Once Rupp does I think we can evaluate him against Hall whom had this conditions met a number of times.

Totally agree.

I just wish we could see what 2011-2014 Rupp would've done in this kind of race. Everyone here just assumes that Rupp could run 2:06 in fast conditions, but I'm not sure 2015-2017 Rupp has done anything to indicate that's a slam dunk. He hasn't set a non-marathon PR in over three years..

2011-2014 Rupp on the other hand, could have been our greatest marathoner ever (though I'm sure he's plenty happy with the 10000m Olympic medal and AR he got in this timeframe...).

I agree that when he was a sub 27 10k runner he would easily been 2:06 or faster. Although I think he's still a low 27 runner who just hasn't been in the right race yet to run that fast. The thon has shown that one can pr in his mid thirties. So he just needs to get in London or Berlin and go after it. If he sticks to just the major domestic thons and Olympics it will be very disappointing. But it might be better for him financially, so who am I to judge.

Alberto has a plan here. I would expect to see Rupp in one of the high-speed marathons next spring, most likely London. His chicago race should get him on the 2018 WC team already, so he could go for it in the spring and see what happens.

Skolvith wrote:

Alberto has a plan here. I would expect to see Rupp in one of the high-speed marathons next spring, most likely London. His chicago race should get him on the 2018 WC team already, so he could go for it in the spring and see what happens.

That's probably not his plan, considering there is no World Championship in 2018.

But I hope he runs London all the same!

I think the plan was to win a major domestic marathon and then go after it at London or Berlin. If Rupp doesn't run in one of those races in 2018 you have to question whether or not Alsal has confidence in Rupp to go sub 2:07. Maybe he's content with going for 2:07-09 wins at Boston, New York, Chicago, and Olympics the rest of his career. But considering Rupp had the economy to go sub 13 and 27 it would be a shame to not see what he can do in a record attempting marathon.

Rupp. No question.

While a tricky question, I think that its worth noticing a couple things:

1 - Rupp's half marathon PR isn't in the same ballpark (sub 60) as Hall's, in fact, Rupp's is slower than Ritz's at 60:00 flat. Ritz has run 2:07 under totally ideal conditions. Rupp hasn't broken into 2:08 yet.

2. - Everyone is foreggtting that Hall was on 2:06 pace in London, and asked the pacemakers to go FASTER. And he was on 2:06 pace for part of the 2007 Trials race on the central park course, and then had no reason to keep running that fast.

2007 hall versus 2017 Rupp? Hall wins. Hall was the greatest American-born Marathoner that we've ever seen. His times show it. Rupp is a great, competitive Marathoner, and he has the hardware in certain races, but Hall was not at his peak in '08 Olympics, knew he overtrained, and still ran 10th in the craziest Olympic marathon of all time. Hall was a marathoner in the mold of the Kenyans, and while Rupps final 10K in Chicago was impressive, without him going to Berlin or London, we're not seeing what sort of speed he really has. I want to see him at 22 miles in London with the lead pack at 2:06 pace before I believe that he could have beat the 2007 Hall.

Hall... no question!

His times are faster, he's got the consistency and everything, but put it this way...

Rupp has every flipping advantage thrown to him from Nike. Everything. Legal or not.. his whole training has been looked after since he was a kid... Hall has been training under god more or less...

If he was given the same advantages it would not have been funny.

Plus Rupp coming into the marathon years later has more years of "knowledge into the sport" and tech coming his way.

I would love to see Hall wearing those Breaking 2 shoes etc. He would make Rupp cry.

Good points, but let's not forget that Rupp's HM PR (47 seconds slower than Hall's) came in early 2011, when he was a) just not as good as he would become, and b) much more focused on 5-10, if not shorter; remember, pretty much all his PRs were yet to come, including a 3:50 mile and a 7:30 3k two years later, and an 8:07 2-mile three years later, so his training was obviously much more speed focused (he would kick to a 10,000 OG medal a year and a half later).

I think Ritz admitted that the half is his best distance. And though extrapolating possible times from different distances is dangerous, we all know Rupp's 10000 PR and his coach's distain for unimportant races (the HM is the definition of an unimportant race). Plenty of fast 10k and HM runners have turned into Tadese marathoners, but Rupp already has enough hardware to be considered a marathon success. In short, his six-year-old HM PR is a pointless statistic.

So point 2 is the interesting part, and I would point you to Raysism's post: "...if five Ryan Halls raced five Galen Rupps, the five Rupps would probably all finish pretty close to each other, and the Halls would range from 2:07 to DNF." I'd even argue the best Hall on the day could go 2:05 or 2:06. But we don't know what the best Rupp would do, which is the point of this exercise (if he already had a 2:05 to his name this thread would be a moot point).

Unfortunately, I'd say Rupp is a much smarter racer than Hall, and one who obviously cares more about place, as evidenced by both of their OT wins: Rupp did just enough to win; Hall banged out an epic middle 20km which, though integral to winning the race, was above and beyond the necessary effort. And further evidenced by Hall's training miscues; maybe he was too competitive, whereas Rupp, like Jenny Simpson, knows his limits and refuses to go beyond them, both in training and racing. He and Salazar make a plan and Rupp sticks to that plan. Hall ran freer, always wanting to push, looking to get the best out of himself, while Rupp has always tried to get the best result and has probably left some time on the table in order to chase medals.

charles_yo wrote:

. And he was on 2:06 pace for part of the 2007 Trials race on the central park course, and then had no reason to keep running that fast.

This is the second time I have to call a different person out in this and their memory of trials.

Here is how I remember it:

The first few miles were painfully slow. At around seven miles or so a pack took off passing Wardian who led the first few miles of the race. The pack included Hall, Ritz, and a couple of others. I think Culpepper and Meb might have been part of that group along with Dan Brown.

They went through the half in 1:07 something.

When they got to around 15 miles Hall saw Kannouchi catching their pack in the jumbotron. He decided to take off and ran 4:30's - 4:40's for the rest of the race. He never slowed up. He ran the last mile in 4:40 something with his hands in the air the entire time. It was an incredible display of athleticism. As fast as he went the last 11 miles he could have gone a lot faster.

The second half was 1:02:50ish. I'm going by memory which is a bit fuzzy but apparently way better than other accounts of the race.

The greatest part of that race for me other than watching Hall drop the hammer down was Brian Sell catching Dan Brown in the final miles of the race to take that third spot on the Olympic team.

Having been present at the 2007 trials, I have to say that the second half of the race was arguably the best I've ever seen out of US-born runner. He soloed the thing on a somewhat hilly loop course in an absurd time, slowing down at the end to smell the roses. If we're comparing Hall from that time and Rupp, I have to take Hall.

The whole day was sad for other reasons, obviously.