Eight weeks to BQ attempt - advice?

hegellian wrote:

Why aren't you doing more runs at 7:15 though? Seems like too much is too slow or too fast.

I believe marathon-pace training is unnecessary. Even Jack Daniels says there is no specific physiological benefit, beyond what you would get from an easy-pace run. He cites a vague mental benefit, but the threshold runs and workouts -- and the long runs -- provide plenty of confidence-boosting.

During my most recent 16-week marathon training, less than 2% of total mileage was within a 20-second range of marathon pace. And I hit those miles while "passing through" paces during progression runs. (I averaged only 38 miles per week, total, so "less than 2%" are VERY few miles).

Despite no targeted marathon-pace training, on race day I settled into exactly marathon pace (after an easy "warmup" first mile). My threshold workouts indicated 7:05 as marathon pace, and that was my 2nd mile split. And just about every mile after that. Until the 24th mile when my low mileage bit me a little -- and I slowed to 7:30s to finish.

I do have the advantage of experience (25th marathon, but this was only the second in 14 years). I knew I could trust my threshold training and long runs, and that I would intuitively run "MP." And I knew that "race-day magic" would make it feel easy. (Well, until the 24th mile).

OP -- I think 3:10 will be easy and enjoyable, as long as you don't get overzealous with a bunch of 6:40s early on! Also, I would strongly advise running far fewer miles during your taper, compared to what Pfitzinger's plans spec. I think his last couple weeks are way too much.

A woman posting on the 50-plus thread a few years ago was following the Pfitzinger plan, running big mileage like you. Hitting all the paces. Running all the workouts. But on marathon day she ran 30 minutes slower than goal. I think she was still exhausted from the training. Take it easy for two or three weeks! (But don't gain too much weight).

Best wishes!

What do you advise for the last few weeks?

I have this week, then next week, the week after that, then marathon week.

I've been kind of designing my own plan based on principles learned here and elsewhere, but don't really have a taper plan.

Great update.

I think that 10 miles at 6:59 is a really strong workout and a good indicator (along with the rest of your workouts).

IndyJ wrote:

What do you advise for the last few weeks? .

To offer specific advice, I would have to go back and look more carefully at your training. But, generally, I would cut back total mileage (last 3 weeks, maybe 75%, 50% 25% of normal volume), but still include some quality, but maybe cut a typical workout in half.

My training was kinda messed up because of injuries for the past six months, but I liked my final week:

SEPT 25 - OCT 1, 2017:

Off

Easy: 4.0 miles (splits - 8:48, 7:55, 7:49, 7:15)

Easy: 4.0 miles (splits - 9:03, 8:21, 7:57, 6:53)

Easy: 4.0 miles (splits - 8:22, 7:49, 7:07, 6:44)

Easy: 2.0 miles @ 7:54/mi

Off

Race: Marathon 3:07:23 (7:08/mi)

In training, 4- and 5-mile threshold runs were at 6:30 to 6:40 pace. Long runs averaged about 7:45. Easy pace was anywhere from 8:00 to 11:00 per mile. Average weekly mileage was 38.

FYI, since you're aiming for a similar time, here are my marathon splits. I use an old-fashioned Timex watch that I manually hit at each mile-marker:

7:32, 7:03, 7:05, 7:05, 7:06

7:05, 6:53, 6:58, 7:00, 7:12,

7:13, 7:07, 7:09, 7:09, 7:09,

7:05, 7:05, 7:05, 7:05, 7:03,

7:02, 7:04, 7:02, 7:33, 7:33,

7:39, 1:28

Good luck. And remember, better to error on the side of too little the last few weeks, rather than too much.

I was thinking closer to 2:54 high

“marathon-pace training is unnecessary....there is no specific physiological benefit, beyond what you would get from an easy-pace run.”

Utter nonsense.

Best advice I ever got before a serious marathon was the following:

Hookers. 1 per night until 48hrs before marathon.

I PR'ed by 5 minutes! 2:18.26 2009 seriously hookerS.

Here is the exact quote from Daniels' Running Formula, Third Edition, page 51:

"... the main benefit of M running is mental, helping you gain confidence at the pace you plan to race in a coming marathon. Physiological benefits are really not different from those gained during E running."

Maybe his research simply hasn't identified the specific benefits from marathon-pace training. Both he and Pfitzinger include M-pace on their schedules. But I have NEVER targeted marathon-pace in training. Lots of slower miles. And all the workouts are faster -- Threshold runs, LT repeats and VO2max intervals.

Now, I was never a stellar runner. Even in my youth, I didn't break 2:40 for the marathon, or 34:00 for 10K. In my mid-40s, I wasn't much under 3 hours for the marathon, and didn't break 17:00 for 5K. Now, at 58, I am even slower.

Maybe M-pace has been the missing ingredient all these years! :)

hegellian, to be honest, I was actually planning to do marathon-pace training this time. I wrote up a schedule based on Pfitzinger's program, and he includes A LOT of M-pace. Like "16 miles with 10 @ MP." I tried a few of those runs, but couldn't manage more than a mile or two at marathon pace. I could do the LT stuff, but finally gave up on the M-pace efforts.

And ... Re: missing ingredient. I know what that has been: Miles. Slow miles, fast miles, any kind of miles. Even when I was a 2:40 marathoner, I was averaging less than 45 mpw. Your mileage is about the same, I think you mentioned. My intentions were always to run 60 or 70 or more ... never really happened.

That will be OP's great advantage on race day.

Allen1959 wrote:

hegellian, to be honest, I was actually planning to do marathon-pace training this time. I wrote up a schedule based on Pfitzinger's program, and he includes A LOT of M-pace. Like "16 miles with 10 @ MP." I tried a few of those runs, but couldn't manage more than a mile or two at marathon pace. I could do the LT stuff, but finally gave up on the M-pace efforts.

And ... Re: missing ingredient. I know what that has been: Miles. Slow miles, fast miles, any kind of miles. Even when I was a 2:40 marathoner, I was averaging less than 45 mpw. Your mileage is about the same, I think you mentioned. My intentions were always to run 60 or 70 or more ... never really happened.

That will be OP's great advantage on race day.

Yeah, I don't know whether there is much new research on the benefits of MP training---which is to say whether anyone has actually scientifically looked into it in detail yet---but it does seem that it is and has been a big element of many elites' training. And so, at the very least, it seems folly to discount it.

For sure it can be hard sometimes to summon MP for extended periods during training. I had one MP run blow up during my last cycle.

It's not for me, but the people who are claiming results with only 3 days of running per week are running more miles at MP.

I can see marathon pace training have a mental benefit as a confidence builder. Form a completely non-scientific perspective, if you can maintain the goal pace over a long distance, that can let you're on track and boost your confidence as you work towards race day. It also can help to know what it feels like to maintain that goal pace. The mental benefit is worth something, considering how much of running is in our heads. I always like to do some goal pace runs, just to get an idea of what it feels like to maintain that pace.

Now if you bomb out on a marathon pace training run, that could have the opposite effect of killing your confidence.

If you do a long enough MP session, most people can actually derive some LT adaptation from it.

But I don't think that there is a lot of bang for your buck there from a physiology standpoint, particularly if you are going at it for less than an hour.

But I do try to do three MP runs of 13 miles each per marathon training cycle. As you and others have noted, there is a mental benefit from doing it, and there is a bit of a muscle memory benefit as well. And while some may discount the muscle memory benefit in an age of GPS watches, note the trouble that many people have during the early miles of Chicago when the buildings give you crappy satellite reception.

But I think the real mental boost actually comes on race day, because I think a lot of people have the same experience that I do with long MP runs - they can feel nearly impossible in training. But on race day, MP actually feels very easy (right up until it doesn't). There is something about getting through 15-18 miles feeling silky smooth after struggling to do the same in a workout that makes you feel great on race day.

For the record, I was doing MP runs for a while. That's the one I blew up on at the start of the thread, but then hit it the next two weeks, as I recall, for 14 and then 16 miles.

I backed off them the last few weeks per advice from this thread and running friends to work on some faster tempo runs and intervals.

Today I did some Yasso 800s. I haven’t done short intervals for a while, but with less than three weeks until race day and with the taper underway, I wanted to check my fitness.

10x800 w/ 2.5-3 minutes walking rests:

1 - 3:00

2 - 2:58

3 - 2:57

4 - 2:58

5 - 3:01

6 - 3:01

7 - 2:59

8 - 3:01

9 - 3:05

10 - 3:05

IndyJ wrote:

For the record, I was doing MP runs for a while. That's the one I blew up on at the start of the thread, but then hit it the next two weeks, as I recall, for 14 and then 16 miles.

I backed off them the last few weeks per advice from this thread and running friends to work on some faster tempo runs and intervals.

My experience is you can break your mp running up in training with 2-3 min jog in between. This allows you to work a range of paces around your target mp since you probably don't know it exactly. Then do only 1 or 2 longer mp efforts later in the cycle as indicator workouts.

IndyJ wrote:

Today I did some Yasso 800s. I haven’t done short intervals for a while, but with less than three weeks until race day and with the taper underway, I wanted to check my fitness.

10x800 w/ 2.5-3 minutes walking rests:

1 - 3:00

2 - 2:58

3 - 2:57

4 - 2:58

5 - 3:01

6 - 3:01

7 - 2:59

8 - 3:01

9 - 3:05

10 - 3:05

While definitely a good workout, Yasso 800s are not always a great marathon indicator. The fact that you faded a bit here is not a good sign, but provided you have some solid endurance built up this session would indicate a marathon around 3:08-3:10. But take that with a grain of salt: I recently had a cycle where 10x800 predicted within 3 minutes of my marathon time, where my training buddy ran about 15-20 minutes slower than his Yasso workout...

Hahariiiiiiight wrote:

IndyJ wrote:

Today I did some Yasso 800s. I haven’t done short intervals for a while, but with less than three weeks until race day and with the taper underway, I wanted to check my fitness.

10x800 w/ 2.5-3 minutes walking rests:

1 - 3:00

2 - 2:58

3 - 2:57

4 - 2:58

5 - 3:01

6 - 3:01

7 - 2:59

8 - 3:01

9 - 3:05

10 - 3:05

While definitely a good workout, Yasso 800s are not always a great marathon indicator. The fact that you faded a bit here is not a good sign, but provided you have some solid endurance built up this session would indicate a marathon around 3:08-3:10. But take that with a grain of salt: I recently had a cycle where 10x800 predicted within 3 minutes of my marathon time, where my training buddy ran about 15-20 minutes slower than his Yasso workout...

Right. I tried to do them faster than my goal time, for the reason you state. I’ve heard they’re a necessary but not sufficient indicator, and that sounds about right.

I think the effort here is key too. Hopefully you were hitting these at about 90, maybe 90-95% controlled effort towards the end, and not killing yourself....

IndyJ wrote:

Right. I tried to do them faster than my goal time, for the reason you state. I’ve heard they’re a necessary but not sufficient indicator, and that sounds about right.

Right. This just shows you have sufficient speed. Personally I never thought that was in doubt. It was always the endurance side that I thought needed work.