Jarmila Kratochvilova explodes against IAAF erasing her 1:53.28 WR

Ben L Wrong wrote:

JK was so doped at the 80's...think that she was a late boomer, because in the 70's, she wasnt World elite material. Only had domestic recognition. 1979 was her first year medaling at European level. With 28 years old.

She started training seriously when she was 25. However, she had always had a talent. When she was a kid she could beat all the boys in sprint at her school.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Is there any direct evidence that Jarmila Kratochvilova doped?

I can find the below quoted assertion in several articles, including Jarmila's Wikpedia page. So far I have not been able to find the underlying article in the Czech newspaper. I'd like to see that.

In 2006, the Prague daily, Mf Dnes, said it had uncovered documents which proved the central committee of the Communist party, and the government, had orchestrated a doping programme, but showed nothing to link Kratochvilova to it, despite her being their brightest star.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13116205.With_clear_evidence_of_doping_comes_every_justification_for_deleting_records/

There is no direct evidence. A lot of people believe she was taking steroids, however she is still respected and works as a coach of young kids. She was also the coach of the world champion Ludmila Formanova.

There was no centrally organized doping program in Czechoslovakia, at least not to such an extent as in Soviet Union or East Germany. What is actually well documented and I could find a source that whatever she was taking it came from the US. She was offered to participate in some semi-organized doping regime but her coach rejected. Instead he was getting for her something from the US which he claimed was vitamine B12. Her case was completely individual, everything was directed by her coach who didn't have the best relations with the federation I think. They were quite isolated from the rest.

Ben L Wrong wrote:

But more concerning issue with her is that everybody read or heard about workouts of these athletes. Even Zalazar was very open about Mo's workouts. Or Koch using light markers for her 250/300m reps.

In the other side, how do we know about workouts or examples of Jarmila's training sessions?

Her training is well known, there were no secrets. Actually her coach wrote a book about her and her training. But it is just in Czech I suspect.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I cannot find any articles in Czech (or Slovakian) but I have found several references to some. Maybe somebody with better foreign language skills can find those.

Here is one in Czech. It's by her coach of 20 years. He insists the only drugs she took were megadoses of vitamin B12 (apparently, 5,000 mg/day) which had to be imported from the US. He also describes her brutal training regime, such lifting 16 tons in a session. That sounds like a lot, but I am not a weightlifter. She also ran 18 300's every afternoon, which also sounds like a lot, but I think Zatopek did more. Overall, the article is skeptical regarding the denials of her steroid use, but it is inconclusive.

If you have any other references, I'll be glad to look them up.

Nobody who was around in the '80s thought Kratochilova was clean. Nobody.

Everybody knew Ben Johnson was dirty.

Everybody knew the East Germans were dirty.

Everybody knew the USSR was dirty.

This was all settled decades ago, you apparently just weren't around to see it.

After the wall came done thousands of documents were day-lighted from the Eastern Bloc that detailed in great specificity who took what, how often and how much. The fact that Marita Koch still maintains her innocence is Trumpian in its audacity. Also Frank Shorter won the Olympic Marathon twice, because neither of Waldemar Cierpinski's titles count.

tl;dr ALL Eastern Bloc performances were dirty. A few of them didn't know they were dirty.

You will never be able to accurately purify the records list. Do we know that the drugs she was using (and I assume that she was using something) were actually banned while she was setting the world record? Obviously she was not under a testing regime at the time. While her protests are blatantly hypocritical, we will in fact never be able to erase the memory of those records. If you want to put an asterisk on old records, go ahead. But they are, like it or not, part of the history of the sport. And erasing history is something totalitarians attempt to do.

Middle Age/Middle Distance wrote:

Also Frank Shorter won the Olympic Marathon twice, because neither of Waldemar Cierpinski's titles count.

This reminds me of Armstrong vs. Ullrich. Both titles should be either ignored or vacated.

mako wrote:

Ben L Wrong wrote:

JK was so doped at the 80's...think that she was a late boomer, because in the 70's, she wasnt World elite material. Only had domestic recognition. 1979 was her first year medaling at European level. With 28 years old.

She started training seriously when she was 25. However, she had always had a talent. When she was a kid she could beat all the boys in sprint at her school.

No doubt she had a ton of talent, no doubt she had to put a lot of work in, but it's also crystal clear she took a hard core amount of PEDs. Combine that trio (mega talent+hard work+PEDs) and athletes could have performances like Kratochvilova, El G, and Komen achieved.

She started training seriously when she was 25. However, she had always had a talent. When she was a kid she could beat all the boys in sprint at her school.

Even in that escenario, if she couldnt break 53 seconds until 27 years old (and after 2 years of serious training, like you said), where's the talent? Ok, lets say that she had pretty decent talent. But not even close to WR talent.

Middle Age/Middle Distance wrote:

Nobody who was around in the '80s thought Kratochilova was clean. Nobody.

Everybody knew Ben Johnson was dirty.

Everybody knew the East Germans were dirty.

Everybody knew the USSR was dirty.

This was all settled decades ago, you apparently just weren't around to see it.

After the wall came done thousands of documents were day-lighted from the Eastern Bloc that detailed in great specificity who took what, how often and how much. The fact that Marita Koch still maintains her innocence is Trumpian in its audacity. Also Frank Shorter won the Olympic Marathon twice, because neither of Waldemar Cierpinski's titles count.

tl;dr ALL Eastern Bloc performances were dirty. A few of them didn't know they were dirty.

Unlike American clean sprinters record. What a joke it's just done in a different way & more in groups.

How many of your top sprinters have been proved to be dopers.

Stop being such hypocrites.

American sprinters have tested positive on many occasions, especially in the period of 2000-2010. Which other cases are you thinking about?

Lewis a minor case of ephedrine, I think. Randy Barnes and Brian Oldfield were doping and caught in the weights. Well, in any case, plenty, with leading lights including Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin, and Tyson Gay. Among distance runners, there was Regine Jacobs.

Many of your athletes are protected. They got Linford Christie. Coe and Radcliffe got off scot-free, as did Kelly Holmes, and Mo looks like he will as well.

Of course pro athletes dope. I can't believe people think that "clean" competition is even possible.

bmg wrote:

This reminds me of Armstrong vs. Ullrich. Both titles should be either ignored or vacated.

Ullrich gets to keep all his titles, including his prestigious 97 TdF. Only Armstrong got screwed on that deal when he was stripped of all 7 of his wins while the other dopers of that era get to keep their titles.

Why is the reading comprehe sion here so bad? I asked for proof of her and her teammates using drugs. Other Chinese people using drugs does not mean she or they did. Does Barry Bonds using drugs prove that all US athletes are using drugs? No.

the bot wrote:

I figured out Santa Claus wasn't real without going to the North Pole to check.

Thank you for supporting my argument.

Jvjv wrote:

cvxxvzc wrote:

Anyone interested in athletics does know how much effort she expended. She placed her life in jeopardy with the steroids and no doubt trained an ungodly amount. Her record needs to be expunged along with the other Eastern European doped records of the 1980s and the Chinese records of the 1990s. Those we have evidence of doping about; others should be dealt with on a case by case basis. The IAAF plan is never going to stand up in court and it should not be set forth.

Is there any proof that she and the Chinese doped? Or are you guys just sexist?

There's no proof Trump is a fvckng dimwit either

Jvjv wrote:

Why is the reading comprehe sion here so bad? I asked for proof of her and her teammates using drugs. Other Chinese people using drugs does not mean she or they did. Does Barry Bonds using drugs prove that all US athletes are using drugs? No.

Your original question was, "Is there any proof that she and the Chinese doped?"

The post you were responding to offers a pretty solid timeline of Chinese athletes doping in athletics and swimming. All of the banned distance track athletes were part of Junren's group.

You'll probably never get ironclad "proof" that the '93 - '97 athletes were doping--I doubt samples were saved for future tests and also doubt that China would allow samples to be retested--but keep in mind that Yunxia has allegedly stated that Junren's athletes (from '93 - '95) were forced to take illegal drugs.

Also consider: what conclusion would you draw if six NOP athletes tested positive for a banned substance in a one-week time period? Or six of Aden's athletes? Or six of any other group?

On Kratochvilova you'll have to make your own judgment; a lot of the records of the training have since been destroyed / hidden / are written in Czech or Russian and aren't available for public viewing / etc. There are various testimonies from Soviet, East German, USSR Satellite nations, etc. about state sponsored doping programs, and many athletes have come forward in the years since.

Obviously this does not necessarily mean that Kratochvilova doped; it does, however, mean that she was likely interacting with many coaches who knowingly gave their athletes illegal performance enhancing drugs. I'd hesitantly make the assumption that she was taking PEDs without her knowledge; many Eastern European athletes from the '70s and '80s and early '90s were not aware of what their coaches were giving them under the guise of vitamins/etc.

I admit that I have some bias here. One of my old coaches was cheated out of at least one Olympic medal by doping eastern European athletes whose medals were not stripped after their bans in later years, and it's impacted my views on the subject.

I do respect Kratochvilova's performances and acknowledge that her training was incredible. I just think given the circumstances of her time, it is reasonable to assume that her coaches were providing her--likely without her knowledge or consent--with some form of PEDs.

And while we're at it, can the IAAF finally give Frank Shorter his gold medal from the 1976 Olympics for the marathon. Waldemar Cierpenski was another dirty East German athlete.

Clean of the clean