Who here has done Maffetone Method (180BPM HR minus your age) for base?

I'm not interested in marathon training, so I probably won't pursue this any further.

However, on a whim, I just ran two miles on an out/back course. I found it impossible to run slowly enough to keep my HR at or below 180 - age, but I could run slow enough to stay within 3-4 beats of 180 - age.

My splits

Mile 1 (about 20 drop over one mile): 14:03

Mile 2 (about 20 elevation gain over mile): 15:36

For comparison, my normal recovery run is about 20 beats higher and ~10:30/mile.

fisky wrote:

I'm not interested in marathon training, so I probably won't pursue this any further.

However, on a whim, I just ran two miles on an out/back course. I found it impossible to run slowly enough to keep my HR at or below 180 - age, but I could run slow enough to stay within 3-4 beats of 180 - age.

My splits

Mile 1 (about 20 drop over one mile): 14:03

Mile 2 (about 20 elevation gain over mile): 15:36

For comparison, my normal recovery run is about 20 beats higher and ~10:30/mile.

Um, were you actually running?

Another MOST IMPORTANT principle in MAFFETONE's holistic method: INDIVIDUALIZATION...

MAFFETONE provides principles (as "less is more" to replace the popular "no pain no gain") and flexible general guidelines, but the goal for everyone is to adjust all aspects of "MAFFETONE way of life" to one's specific situation.

The "two week test" is such an individualization tool, as the protocol AFTER the two weeks will enable to find ONES own personal optimal amount of healthy carbs that can tolerated, or the regular "MAF test" is also a tool to assess that a change in training do not impede the aerobic development.

This individualization principle is thus applied by a trial and error procedure, and this is also a dynamic (permanently ongoing) process as what is "optimal" for a given individual in each component (training, eating,...) may (and WILL!) change with time.

fisky wrote:

I found it impossible to run slowly enough to keep my HR at or below 180 - age, but I could run slow enough to stay within 3-4 beats of 180 - age.

Again: How old are you?

You would definitely qualify for the "+10 beats upgrade" (assuming no medication, illness or other mitigating factors), which would put you in the 11-12 minute range, which is where I started from. Now I am getting close to sub-10 minutes and feeling great, I can literally run a marathon at this pace any day of the week. I dropped a 6:40 mile into one of my 10-milers last week and it was smooth as when I was competitive ten years ago. I encourage you to give it a try, at least for your long and easy runs. Most older runners are I think too proud and impatient to go slow, then wonder why they are always breaking down and losing fitness and gaining weight overall. Like bben said, it is a holistic system designed to have performance coincide with health, which is a tricky prospect at any age.

fisky wrote:

I'm not interested in marathon training, so I probably won't pursue this any further.

However, on a whim, I just ran two miles on an out/back course. I found it impossible to run slowly enough to keep my HR at or below 180 - age, but I could run slow enough to stay within 3-4 beats of 180 - age.

My splits

Mile 1 (about 20 drop over one mile): 14:03

Mile 2 (about 20 elevation gain over mile): 15:36

For comparison, my normal recovery run is about 20 beats higher and ~10:30/mile.

You are a 400-800 meter runner and you are training at 10 minutes per mile?

Have you run a 62 at 400 after 60 years old? And did you get to 62 off of only 10 times 100?

The latest Endurance Planet podcast addresses many of the issues that have come up on this thread. Maffetone is a frequent guest, but this one is an episode with MAF disciples Tawnee and Lucho. From the website, here are some MAF related topics addressed on this episode:

On this episode of Ask the Coaches with Tawnee and Lucho:

What is MAF? Explanation for new listeners and a refresher for loyal fans. Tawnee and Lucho each give their definition of MAF.

Do the MAF “run walk” or stick to steady state?

For master’s runners: why you may want to consider scheduling workouts that take you over MAF in training to work the high-end fitness.

MAF is plateauing, what next? In 28 months, MAF dropped from 12min/miles to 8:25min/miles. Time to incorporate intensity, where to start?

Gradually adding intensity, a la Lucho

How segueing into more intensity can boost your MAF pace (but only do this is you’ve spent time building your MAF base!).

http://www.enduranceplanet.com/atc-222-night-running-gear-hormones-and-hrv-the-maf-run-walk-posterior-knee-pain-and-more-2/

The mind is gone, but the greasy little fingers keep tapping away....

fred wrote:

You are a 400-800 meter runner and you are training at 10 minutes per mile?

Have you run a 62 at 400 after 60 years old? And did you get to 62 off of only 10 times 100?

10 minute miles- that's about what you run, isn't it? Keep on jogging.

Would fred's caretaker PLEEAASSEE take him away from the computer? His drool is going to cause an accident.

Your mom doesn't seem to mind.

Namesake wrote:

I'm curious who has done the Maffetone Method for building base and what kind of success you have had?

Thanks

I've done most of my easy runs at around MAF (or under) for the past 1.5 years, and ran my first sub-3 marathon in October.

I swear by it, but I also credit fitness gains to running higher milage in general, and sticking to Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 running formula (which emphasizes polarized training, running 80% slow/MAF, and 20% hard workouts).

I'd recommend running the 80% at MAF pace, but I don't agree with all of Maffetone's stances on diets, he's a little fanatical about high fat.

Gaston Roelants wrote:

You would definitely qualify for the "+10 beats upgrade" (assuming no medication, illness or other mitigating factors), which would put you in the 11-12 minute range, which is where I started from. Now I am getting close to sub-10 minutes and feeling great, I can literally run a marathon at this pace any day of the week. I dropped a 6:40 mile into one of my 10-milers last week and it was smooth as when I was competitive ten years ago. I encourage you to give it a try, at least for your long and easy runs.

Most older runners are I think too proud and impatient to go slow, then wonder why they are always breaking down and losing fitness and gaining weight overall. Like bben said, it is a holistic system designed to have performance coincide with health, which is a tricky prospect at any age.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. Just so we are clear, I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in running marathons. I'm focused on the 400m and 800m with occasional forays into the 1500m and 5k.

I strongly believe that older runners need high intensity running all year around to maintain range of motion, race pace efficiency, and boost testosterone levels. I do speed work and lift weights all year around.

I think I'm just an outlier when it comes to HR. I'm in my late 60s. My max HR right now is 185. When I take a few days off so I'm fully rested, I can hit 191-193.

That said, I would like to do my recovery runs *as slow as possible* while still getting a benefit. That's my primary interest in this method.

fisky wrote:

I think I'm just an outlier when it comes to HR. I'm in my late 60s. My max HR right now is 185. When I take a few days off so I'm fully rested, I can hit 191-193.

I dont' think you are. If I take 69 as your age (you would need to use your EXACT age...), according to the "180 formula" you can (if you are healthy and not under medication) use 180-age+10, which goes to 126.

And, if you read one of my previous post, 126 is EXACTLY what you can predict by taking 80% of your Anaerobic Threshold HR of 158 from FRIEL test.

So both estimates match perfectly. If you would like to follow MAF base training, you would have to run all of your training AT or up to 10bpm below 126.

MAFFETONE base training is about building a base, which is also important for middle distances. So you MIGHT want to give it a fair try, but for that you would have to dedicate ~6 months to be able to conclude, following your improvements in a monthly MAF test.

Sorry 180-69+10 = 121, not 126... But both estimates come up to be quite close anyway. Probably taking 180-age+10 would be ok for you.

I have provided a summary of the principles of the method, if you would like to know a bit more about it here are the introductory papers to read from MAFFETONE's web site:

1)

https://philmaffetone.com/white-paper-introduction-maf-maximum-aerobic-function/

2)

https://philmaffetone.com/white-paper-maf-exercise-heart-rate-can-help-improve-health-sports-performance/

BBen wrote:

I have provided a summary of the principles of the method, if you would like to know a bit more about it here are the introductory papers to read from MAFFETONE's web site:

1)

https://philmaffetone.com/white-paper-introduction-maf-maximum-aerobic-function/

2)

https://philmaffetone.com/white-paper-maf-exercise-heart-rate-can-help-improve-health-sports-performance/

I looked at his site for what kind of doctor he is and his educational background. I couldn't find anything anywhere at his site. He worked with Mark Allen, which was a long time ago.

Can you tell us of any world class runners from 1500m to marathon that use his methods today? Who are the world class 1500m to marathon runners that he has coached or advised recently?

I looked at PubMed for published peer reviewed papers in the scientific literature and found a total of ZERO papers published by Dr. Phil Maffetone on his revolutionary training or fat burning diet system.

I then looked on the internet for about 2 minutes and found out that Dr. Maffetone is a chiropractor. I do not find him impressive at all. He has no degrees in physiology (or nutrition)... so he is not like Jack Daniels (who has lived in Flagstaff... and I have talked with) or 2 time US Olympic marathoner Pete Pfitzinger (who has lived in New Zealand). I will continue to take advice from them…or Allan Lawrence (Aussie)…or Percy Cerutty (Aussie)…or Arthur Lydiard (New Zealand-Kiwi Superhero™).

Some of the stuff on this thread like (glycolitic? anaerobic hypertrophy?)and cortisol increases being more likely with anaerobic training is nonsense. Overtraining from either too much intensity or too many slow miles or both can all cause cortisol increases (but not always), along with many other types of life stress. That is common sense.

I have measured cortisol, DHEA, insulin, testosterone, thyroid, estrogens, progesterone and other hormones in many people, including some world-class runners, for many years. Some people have elevated cortisol levels that do not run at all.

Ventilatory threshold can be measured with fancy treadmill lab equipment. It can also be measured with the simple Talk Test, which has a very high correlation with the fancy lab tests. It is at the point when you have trouble speaking comfortably…and is at around 73% of VO2max and 83% of max Heart Rate, with a rating of perceived exertion (RPE) of 14.8 in this study.

For example:

Phil MAFFETONE may have some fans, but it seems he definitely has strong opponents out there ;-)

I’ll just post this last message on this thread, because it seems that some are very religious about the topic, and religious fight usually leads nowhere but loss of time for everybody. So let me just pinpoint and correct a few points.

First, MAFFETONE is not a professional researcher, in the academic sense of the word, but a clinician. Does it disqualify him for providing general training and health guidelines?

As training methodology is concerned, please read the beginning of “80/20 training” by FITZGERALD. You’ll realize that ALL training advances comes from a field-based trial and error process, and NOT from scientific studies. The “80/20 rule” for instance was long applied (since LYDIARD basically) before SEILER “discovered” it. LYDIARD himself did not know much physiology when he initially developed his system, and later rationalized it using physiological explanation that can largely be considered as outdated nowadays. However, his systems worked and is still working. Even Jack DANIEL (which whom I am in contact for many years now and for whom I have the deepest respect) developed a training system based on a scientific model that in some aspect can also be considered as outdated.

This is the same for the whole MAFFETONE systems. The fact that it has been “field-developed”, based on the clinical experience he had with thousands of individual of various historical background and level of abilities is a MUCH better guarantee of relevance of his system than any official degree or an astonishing H-index (ie: kind of ranking of scientist in terms of citations performances of their papers).

So, what is important is that the MAFFETONE systems WORKS for many individuals, even if we cannot fully explain why scientifically, or even if some of his own explanation might be proven incorrect in the future. Note that MAFFETONE has recently started scientific collaborations with some researcher, so these scientific “proofs” and explanations might come in the future (you seems to have missed the viewpoint paper “Fit but unhealthy” MAFFETONE has published lately with New-Zealand physiologist Paul LAURSEN).

Second, MAFFETONE is also not a professional “top-elite” athlete coach, with a sophisticated training system and providing day-by-day guidance of his athletes to get them as close as possible to their full potential. MAFFETONE contribution is just different, and it is not just another “training system”.

Again, what he provides are general training, diet and lifestyle guidelines to help people becoming both fit and healthy, as well as tools and procedures to allow them to develop their body awareness and become fully independant. When this goal is reached, this does not prevent a dedicated athlete, a forciori a potential future “top athlete”, to embrace some sophisticated training method (many, including DANIEL’s, are compatible with MAFFETONE general guidelines) or start a private coaching. This is just different.

Many “training methods”, including DANIEL’s, ASSUME that you are a healthy individual with an already well-developed aerobic base to be efficient, but does not really explain how to get there. MAFFETONE does.

As example of top-elite athletes, although not directly a I already mentioned that Paula RADCLIFFE training is fully compatible with MAFFETONE recommendation, and that Eliud KIPCHOGE followed a transition training in 2012 that look very similar to a MAFFETONE base building, and reportedly (from CANOVA) for EXACTLY the reason that MAFFETONE advocates: improving his fat-burning ability…

Now good luck to everybody with your individual journey to become fit and healthy… or with your religious fight if this is what you like… ;-)

If you have been in contact with Jack Daniels for many years, I would think that you would know how to spell his last name. It is not Jack Daniel. It is Jack Daniels. He lived in Flagstaff and has also influenced Mike Smith, who will be the new NAU coach next year.

Arthur Lydiard had all the important training elements almost 60 years ago…including aerobic mileage, plyometrics (drills, hill springing, hill bounding as strength/power work), anaerobic work, speedwork, and peaking). Percy Cerutty added heavy weight training at the same time.

I don't see much new that has been added since then…except for cryochambers, underwater treadmills, outerspace-AlterGravity treadmills, compression socks, GPS monitors, FITBIT, nasal strips, autologous blood transfusions, various types of EPO, HIF stabilizers such as FG-4592, inhalation of xenon or krypton noble gases as HIF-1alpha activators to increase erythropoiesis...and lots of other nonsense.

In conclusion:

Almost all running training programs involve 1 to 2 hours a day of running (except for Ed Whitlock) with a healthy amount of volume and intensity... with some days that are hard and some days that are easy. This is absolutely shocking news... that is hard to make a lot of money on by selling hyped up training programs for hundreds of dollars to stupid people.

I was influenced by Arthur Lydiard and Percy Cerutty many years ago when I was very young. I have run over 85,000 miles since then...and am not going to be stopping any time soon.

Watch out Ed Whitlock.