Jack Daniels 2Q'ing Again - Long Run Advice

Thanks for the support Toadlips, 2Qfollower, xtrain, Smoove and all of Let's Run!

I ran the Philadelphia Marathon today in 2:56:32, a PR by over 20 minutes...

I split the half in 1:28:46 and the second half in 1:27:46...had never even imagined running a negative split. The winds did not bother too much, the temps were ideal for me (high 30s, low 40s and dry).

Had been dreaming of sub 3 for so many years. I think I figured out a few things preparing for this marathon (focused on diet, weight, consistent mileage, leaving nothing to chance, even heart rate during race).

Slowest mile today was mile 1 as I was stuck too far behind (7:05). All others were sub 6:50. The fastest was mile 26 (6:21) and the final 2.5 minutes at 5:53 (on my Garmin).

What happened? I really don't know, but I am so thankful for JD "M"pace workouts. I skipped many of the T pace workouts when not feeling great, or kept them shorter than he recommends. Less if often more when at risk of "crossing the line" in marathon training.

As Toadlips and I discussed in one of the earlier posts, the key was to get to your desired training mileage early on at whatever pace you must (I ran many, many 9 or even 10 minute miles), and once you are there (for me it was 60 to 65) stay there and start doing long runs and workouts.

Toadlips, thanks so much again for the inspriation and good words. Today I focused on enjoying myself, I really did. No pain or suffering or negative thoughts. Miles went by that way. I kept checking HR/pace balance (not too hard, not too slow) and that was it. It wasn't about racing today, it was about all the work we put into it in the weeks, months, leading to that big goal.

Let's keep this thread alive. We can all help each other accomplishing our goals!

You didn't fail last time. Missing a time target is not failing & you made the best of bein injured& performed well given that.

Stick with the Daniels plan as you are not doing all long runs a easy pace and those faster long runs and couple of longer runs should be enough without turning you into a plodder.

If you are following a plan it seems to be going ok & are not injured, no reason to change it

Amazing. Congrats 7:30!!

Congratulations 7:30!

Not sure if you are aware of this, but if you are using Strava you might qualify for a free pair of shoes, due to your negative split:

http://blog.strava.com/back-half-challenge/

Nice work, especially the strong finish.

Toadlips wrote:

3:11

Hi Mike!

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

I ran the Philadelphia Marathon today in 2:56:32, a PR by over 20 minutes..

Dude. I don't even know what to say. You blew the freaking doors off!! Does 6:43.98569725864127 sound right, now? :) That is one solid, SOLID sub-3.

Fantastic pacing and outstanding work on the home stretch. A perfect 1 minute negative split is "right on time". I cannot believe you averaged 5:53 for the final 2.5 minutes. That's REALLY flying!!

We seldom talk about this here on Letsrun.com, but I'm so glad that you enjoyed the race. How you managed to skate by without any major suffering is beyond me, but that must have been one serious runner's high that you were riding in on! :)

Thank YOU for the support, as well! It's been great to compare notes and get ideas from you and smoove and txRunnerGirl and the rest of the anonymous crew. Even Klingon Heart did his part by instilling a rage and fury that fueled many a T filled night.

As a great man once told me: "Your sub 3 is forever yours". It really is the reward for everything you have done to get yourself to this point.

Enjoy it, man!!! What's next? Disney Land??? :)

Bruh wrote:

Toadlips wrote:

3:11

Hi Mike!

Tell me about it! The sad think is that I know exactly what you're talking about! :)

Congrats! I am trying for sub-3 as well and this is very inspiring. I have a lot of work to do. Still stuck in the 3:09 range.

also, are you on strava? i'd be interested in following your workouts and mimic them!

An honest statement wrote:

Congrats! I am trying for sub-3 as well and this is very inspiring. I have a lot of work to do. Still stuck in the 3:09 range.

Hi Honest Statement. As I say, I am no expert, but I followed Jack Daniels' 3rd Edition 2Q plan with a peak of 70 miles for the last 14 weeks before my race. It took me from a previous PR of 3:10:19 to 2:59:00. I was probably somewhere between 3:05 and 3:10 shape when I started the plan.

How are your PRs in the shorter distances? Do they indicate that you have a lot of untapped marathon potential, or do your PRs all fall in line? How many marathons have you run, and how many years?

I'm not on Strava, but I can put together the training I did for my most recent marathon to give you an idea of what the program looks like.

Toadlips how'd the 10k go?

May I ask what was your post marathon approach? I felt real good at the end of the race, but rapidly tightened and very sore (quads) for 3 days. Now (Thu) I'm no longer limping or anything.

I'm thinking 7 days off, then some light jogging for a week or two, and see how I feel.

While I have no immediate goal, I would love to "keep the fitness" despite the looming overeating during the holidays!

In 2017 goal will be to get quicker at 5k-half first, maybe introduce doubles in the winter (some on treadmill) and later on perhaps build to 70mpw.

Hope you're well! Happy to help anyone on this thread who has any question on 2Q. My only caution is to remain flexible and adjust as necessary. I didn't follow an exact plan per se, rather a layout or guide. In particular my T pace runs were shorter mid week.

Happy post-Turkey Day, 7:30!

Sometimes you stick the fork in the turkey, and sometimes the turkey sticks the fork in you!

I would have been wise to take a more cautious training approach to the 10k after the marathon. I had been following phase IV of Jack Daniel's 10k program for 3 weeks or so with about 40-50 mpw. 3 Q's per week with mainly T pace stuff (and much shorter distance than during the 2Q program!) Things were going well until about a week and a half ago when I noticed that one of my butt muscles in my left leg felt a little strained after a workout.

I figured I could coast the week and a half to the Trot and still be good, but while I lowered my mileage and intensity, something in my right quad tightened up for no good reason! I had been running nothing but E miles, so I have no idea why that happened, but it was the right leg that ultimately did me in.

I held out hope till the night before the Trot, and tried to run a little bit at 6:00 pace on the treadmill and it was definitely a "no go". I decided to err on the side of caution and pulled a "no show" to the Trot.

I have no idea what's going on with my right quad. It's like a terrible burning pain whenever I push it too hard. My plan is to take it easy for a bit, maintain whatever fitness I can during the holiday season, and then maybe still make an attempt at some shorter distance PRs if I still have something left!

Glad to hear that you're recovering well from the Marathon. I like your plan! I have no problem using the treadmill when the weather gets treacherous. I don't mind the cold, but I slipped backwards on some black ice 2 winters ago while running down a hill at speed -- very lucky I didn't crack my head open. I know some purists frown on it, but I love watching TV shows on Netflix while cranking out the miles!

Good luck in your training and happy holidays!!!

It does seem intense post marathon, that's for sure! I'm considering 1-2 weeks off then light jogging. I feel lazy but cautious!

No doubt you made the right decision.

Rest up for a bit and pick up some anciliary training! Oddly enough, my quads were the most sore post marathon, and I had troubles with gluteus medius/hips prior.

I've found that working out the gluteus medius and hips really make a difference in my running, lengthening the stride while stabilizing the pelvis.

I would recommend looking up the "Myrtl" routine. Prior to the race, and in addition to yoga, I also did the following 10 min core/hip workout which helped keeping heathy

All continuous:

1' Prone Plank (elbows)

30"-1' Right or Left Side Plank

1' Prone Plank again, maybe lift one leg and opposite arm to add challenge

30"-1' Left or Right Side Plank

1' Prone Plank

1' "Dirty Dog" (look it up aka Fire Hydrants) -- 30" each side

1' "Donkey Kicks" --- 30" each side

1' Quadruped Hip Exenstion -- 30" each side

1'-2' Side lying hip abduction

1' Glute bridge (on heel) or hip thrusts

1' Knee circles front and back

Bonus: Seated Hip Adbuction machine, if you've already done a bunch of work you will feel the glutes burn

Disclaimer: not a medical professional. But these tend to help runners. Your quad issue will probably resolve with time and rest, and taking the strain of by working out the rest.

For now though don't go nuts, enjoy the holiday and feel proud of the sub 3!

What a great thread. 7:30...did you manage to write your plan up? On Strava maybe or a spreadsheet. Reading this thread I see many similarities with my training and paces.

I will echo that this was a great thread and convinced me to use 2Q for my upcoming marathon.

I'm always hoping the thread is somehow about some nice pure JD Tennessee whiskey. So once again I am disappointed.

Chesterboy wrote:

What a great thread. 7:30...did you manage to write your plan up? On Strava maybe or a spreadsheet. Reading this thread I see many similarities with my training and paces.

7:30 here --- great thread indeed, helped me a ton. You see the whole point about Daniel's 2Q plan really is about its simplicity. 2 quality workouts, which at times for me, meant just 1 (the long run) or even 0 when on the verge of getting hurt.

The most important elements that helped me shave 20 minutes of my marathon PR were the following:

1. Consistent mileage week after week. I averaged 60 mpw over the last 12 weeks with a peak of 65.

2. Consistent daily mileage. I averaged 7-10 miles a day on the non-long run days, in singles. Mostly slow. Running 7 miles the day after a hard long run is important, so "get the miles in" and don't worry about pace.

3. Easy runs were very slow...8:30-9:30.

4. Dropped weight / ate better / slept more.

5. Q1 runs were 3 x 10' tempo intervals @ 6:15 w/ 2' rest, or similar. They helped.

6. Q2 runs were long runs with some MP in the second half, building up to 10 E + 10 M. I did that one 3 weeks prior to the race.

- I only ran 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 miles once in the cycle, and all incoporated MP (~6:45-6:52).

These 6 points all worked together and helped me become a better runner. A year after, I find that I even have more "speed' (recently did 800 type intervals at paces I had never seen before), so believe that consistent, slow mileage + "some" quality works.

Getting more granular to the exact specifics will not be helpful to others --- do what works for you in terms of scheduling. Simple: consistent, 2Q workouts, be flexible, don't be married to a plan.

What I ran in the race is exactly what I ran in the last half of 10 E + 10 M. I also used a HRM, and felt that 150-155 bpm was a good range for me, fast/aerobic without burning too much sugar. I also trained mostly on empty, but took in gels (5-6) during the race. Do experience a bit to make sure your stomach cooperates if you do that, but that too helped.

Let me know if I can help more! I think that someone around 38 for the 10k, and sub 1:25 in the half, with decent mileage (can be 40-50 mpw for some, it was 60 mpw, may be more for others) has a good shot at sub 3.

Wondering where Toadlips is??

Thanks for replying.

I've only ran one Marathon, April 17 - 3:14. That was on the back of 2Q's a week - in theory. Only averaged 44 MPW and missed a few key workouts due to seasonal bugs.

Since April I kept my mileage at 40ish every week. I had a target marathon scheduled a few weeks back but had a niggle so took a few weeks off running and decided to miss it. It was my first break from running in over 12 months, so not a bad thing. Since April 17, I've ran 38:10 / 10k, 1:25 / HM and 17:48 / 5k.

So, a new goal of a sub 3 marathon in April 2018.

Ideally, I'll start building the miles back up over the next 4/5 weeks and then kick off an 18 week 2Q plan, with 60 being target peak.

Thanks for the pointers, a really useful summary. Most of which I'll be taking on board. I've got some base building to be cracking on with...