Metric Miler wrote:
...... You can take so much EPO that your blood becomes so viscous you die from a heart attack (as happened to one man talked about in that documnetary), ....
This isn't really a big point at all ..... Taking an aspirin made for infants is often prescribed to lower blood viscosity and avoid heart attacks. Blood viscosity is extremely elastic.
Renato, two questions:
1) if the top athletes are not testing positive, with the exception of Rita Jeptoo, is it possible that is because they are making enough money to cheat successfully via their sophisticated European agents like Hermens and Rosa? I wouldn't rule out a European BALCO for them.
The lower tier test positive because they don't know how to avoid testing positive. They lack that kind of advice and specialized drugs.
2) How fast is a typical untrained 18 year old Kenyan male in the Kalenjin area?
You often talk about the talent and work ethic of these athletes and you mentioned that it was absurd to find a group that was running over 10 minutes for a 3k. So, just how fast are there on, e.g.:
No training
30 mpw
50 mpw
100 mpw
150 mpw
Or, to put it another way, are there Kenyan males living in Kenya training hard with, say, 100-150 mpw with multiple workouts and not running equivalents of low to sub 13, 2:07, with the opportunity to run at sea level? In the United States, of course, very few people train at that level, but of those who do and are young, they are typically running mid to low 13 or better or in the marathon typically 2:10-2:18.
Wtfunny wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:...... You can take so much EPO that your blood becomes so viscous you die from a heart attack (as happened to one man talked about in that documnetary), ....
This isn't really a big point at all ..... Taking an aspirin made for infants is often prescribed to lower blood viscosity and avoid heart attacks. Blood viscosity is extremely elastic.
The point was simply that injected EPO is artificial. It increases your blood haemoglobin levels pretty much infinitely until it kills you. Being Kenyan or elite doesn't mean that EPO won't produce more red blood cells because you have already reached a maximum or something.
Metric Miler wrote:
The point was simply that injected EPO is artificial. It increases your blood haemoglobin levels pretty much infinitely until it kills you. ....
And my point is that doesn't take much at all when it comes to pharmaceuticals. Drugs are often prescribed to do quite the opposite of that.
How much does that help elite Kenyan athletes? I have no idea. I'd defer to Renato, but I do find it odd to argue that it offers zero benefit to them. It makes sense that the benefit decreases, even enormously, but disappears all together? And even if it decreases down to a tiny, tiny differential, say 0.002%, .... if that means the difference between a medal or not, or a spot in the final or not, etc, I can imagine that's more than enough motivation for some.
Once again, Renato, you can tell me that you know of athletes that are clean and run elite times without suspicious blood levels. I believe you.
This is not evidence that PEDs do not affect Kenyans. This is not evidence that Kenya has even an adequate anti-doping programme.
You stand alone in trying to convince science that PEDS do not affect Kenyans. This is not even just about EPO as I have said, Kenyans have free reign to use whatever they want in the winter.
This is about Kenya having poor anti-doping controls, allegations of widespread doping amongst Kenyan athletes by Kenyan athletes, many athletes being caught doping, doctors being discovered by journalists as operating as part of a network of doping and anti-doping officials suspended for corruption including covering up positives.
You can tell me your athletes are clean, but you cannot tell me Kenyan athletics is clean. To do so you risk your own integrity.
The fact you think money should be used to try and prove PEDs don't work on elites with no mention on improving anti-doping controls for example, is quite sickening.
I believe you are an honest man, you believe in what you preach and you train your athletes honestly. However, I would not be defending all those in Kenya if I were you in the current climate of investigation by WADA. You don't know what many individuals and other coaches and athletes are doing.
One other major figure in Kenya that claimed WADA is making a big deal from nothing and that journalists were victimizing Kenya was Isaih Kiplagat, and look at him now.
As I said, where there is opportunity to bring oneself out of financial difficulties, and an opportunity to get there quickly, people will always take the short cut.
I will not be involved in discussion about whether PEDs affect elites or not as it is frankly insulting the intelligence of all who read it. You can believe what you want about EPO. There are no scientists/physiologists/doctors that agree with you. There are many other PEDs available also. The argument is very much more about a lack of testing plus a culture of corruption in Kenyan athletics.
Metric Miler wrote:
Once again, Renato, you can tell me that you know of athletes that are clean and run elite times without suspicious blood levels. I believe you.
This is not evidence that PEDs do not affect Kenyans. This is not evidence that Kenya has even an adequate anti-doping programme.
You stand alone in trying to convince science that PEDS do not affect Kenyans. This is not even just about EPO as I have said, Kenyans have free reign to use whatever they want in the winter.
This is about Kenya having poor anti-doping controls, allegations of widespread doping amongst Kenyan athletes by Kenyan athletes, many athletes being caught doping, doctors being discovered by journalists as operating as part of a network of doping and anti-doping officials suspended for corruption including covering up positives.
You can tell me your athletes are clean, but you cannot tell me Kenyan athletics is clean. To do so you risk your own integrity.
The fact you think money should be used to try and prove PEDs don't work on elites with no mention on improving anti-doping controls for example, is quite sickening.
I believe you are an honest man, you believe in what you preach and you train your athletes honestly. However, I would not be defending all those in Kenya if I were you in the current climate of investigation by WADA. You don't know what many individuals and other coaches and athletes are doing.
One other major figure in Kenya that claimed WADA is making a big deal from nothing and that journalists were victimizing Kenya was Isaih Kiplagat, and look at him now.
As I said, where there is opportunity to bring oneself out of financial difficulties, and an opportunity to get there quickly, people will always take the short cut.
I will not be involved in discussion about whether PEDs affect elites or not as it is frankly insulting the intelligence of all who read it. You can believe what you want about EPO. There are no scientists/physiologists/doctors that agree with you. There are many other PEDs available also. The argument is very much more about a lack of testing plus a culture of corruption in Kenyan athletics.
I think (hope) Renato is smart enough to know that there is a difference made in Kenyans who use EPO. That said, I believe his argument is that such a difference might be small or even negligible, since Kenyans already have a higher volume of red blood cells. However, to insist that there is no effect whatsoever is simply foolish.
jjjjjjj wrote:
You often talk about the talent and work ethic of these athletes .....
Or, to put it another way, are there Kenyan males living in Kenya training hard with, say, 100-150 mpw with multiple workouts and not running equivalents of low to sub 13, 2:07, with the opportunity to run at sea level? In the United States, of course, very few people train at that level, but of those who do and are young, they are typically running mid to low 13 or better or in the marathon typically 2:10-2:18.
What's your point? Based on your own #'s, "hard working/talented" american are running slower than equivalently hard-working Kenyans. Either Kenyans are more talented or they push themselves to their limits more in races (likely the former). So what's your point?
We know that certainly there have been tons of americans who have consistently put in 100+ mile weeks over a period of years, and many of that same group also showed a great deal of talent and work ethic. Out of this group, exactly TWO AMERICAN BORN RUNNERS HAVE BROKEN 2:09 FOR THE MARATHON (on a record eligible course). TWO.
How many East Africans have done this???? I don't have time to count. TONS.
You can come up with whatever excuses one wants to to explain away this mind-boggling difference in results , but it ain't due to drugs, and most certainly is due at least in part to natural ability.
Also nobody can pretend that EPO is the only drug abused. Steroids help all forms of physical training, HGH, stimulants. Both in recovery, the rate at which athletes respond to training and improve and in performance. Endurance athletes have been caught in Kenya using more than just EPO and the investigations show doctors offering a cocktail of drugs.
And the lack of drug testing means all these drugs are potentially used with no consequences.
Personally I feel Renato knows the state of anti-doping in Kenya so instead tries to say the drugs don't work to make it a moot point.
I know this has been debated to death on dozens of threads but Renato sometimes (mainly when it is convenient for his theories) speaks of HCt and Hb levels as if an athletes blood volume is fixed.
The Hct and Hb tests use a fixed and very small amount of drawn blood to determine hematoctrit percentage and hemoglobin count from the 10 ml or so of blood that is drawn. What a normal blood test can't do is determine the total blood volume of an athlete. That is why Olympic cross-country skiers in the early 2000s used plasma-increasing drugs and transfusions to rebalance Hematocrit percentage back below 50%.
No one is arguing that runners could rely on EPO to obtain elite level performances without serious training. In fact, it stands to reason that EPO doping without endurance training would be dangerous and counterproductive as blood would get thick and hard to pump. However, as Renato mentions, one of the primary effects of endurance training is an increase in blood plasma volume. Couple good training with smart EPO micro-dosing and you get runners with slight boosts in Hct/ Hb counts while still getting significant but not incriminating performance boosts.
The argument that elite runners would not benefit from EPO use beause they have already maximized their usable amount of red blood cells is both biologically unlikely and counter to available results. The fastest climb of Alp de Huex still belongs to Pantini, Mr. 60% himself. In track, the 1500, 3000, 5000, 10000 meter world records were all achieved well prior to the ABP and most done before any sort of EPO test was available at all.
At a certain point, Ochahm's Razor comes into play and the simplest explanation becomes the only plausible explanation. Consider the following summation.
In 1992 the 5k WR was 12:58 and the 10K WR was 27:08. Both were achieved on modern surfaces by highly professional, well-paid and well trained athletes with high-altitude backgrounds.
Then a drug called EPO becomes available. At the same time, elite performances in two well-established sports, track and cycling, drastically improve. In the space of six years a flood of runners break the old 5k and 10k WRs and by 1998, just six years later the 5k WR is 19 seconds faster at 12:39 and the 10K WR is 48 seconds faster at 26:20! If we were to take the 1992 5k and 10k records in reverse those same amounts we would have to go nearly 25 years back to Ron Clarke circa 1966 during the introduction of synthetic tracks.
Then, a test for the EPO is introduced circa 2001. The test is not perfect and is best at detecting blatant recent use rather than low-level micro dosing. Still, the cascade of falling WRs slows to a trickle with only minor improvements in the 5k and 10k. In 2009 an athletic blood profile testing program is implemented that, when enforced, is designed to detect doping of various sorts by comparing changes in athlete's biological markers in addition to direct tests for banned drugs.
After the ABP is introduced in 2009, no one, not even the WR holder himself who was only in his late 20s in 2009, has come within 20 secs of the 10k world record or within 8 seconds of the 5K WR.
What should we conclude from this? The simplest answer is that the drug, EPO, improves endurance performance, including the performances of the best, most well trained athletes in the world. Is it possible that something else or a combination of factors could explain the phenomena that has in fact happened in track and cycling from 1990 through today?
Yes, it is possible.
But EPO does exist, it does boost red blood cell counts, the performance improvements did occur, the improved EPO and ABP tests were introduced, and sub 12:45 5ks and sub 26:40 10ks have disappeared from the realm of possibility after the introduction of the ABP.
So I have a question for the Renatos of the world.
What is the elite training that HG and Daniel Komen and Paula Radcliffe and Keninese Bekele were doing between 1995 and 2008 that Henry Rono and Said Auoita and Mirtus Yifter were not doing in the 1980s and that Caleb Ndiku and Mo Farah and Keninese Bekele and Jemima Sumgong are not doing now?
If someone can credibly answer that question then we can stop arguing about blood values and the like.
Metric Miler wrote:
Wtfunny wrote:This isn't really a big point at all ..... Taking an aspirin made for infants is often prescribed to lower blood viscosity and avoid heart attacks. Blood viscosity is extremely elastic.
The point was simply that injected EPO is artificial. It increases your blood haemoglobin levels pretty much infinitely until it kills you. Being Kenyan or elite doesn't mean that EPO won't produce more red blood cells because you have already reached a maximum or something.
You are correct Metric Miler. Very well done Metric Miler. I was worried about you a few pages ago... but you recovered really well and are finishing strong.
And by the way...any word on the sub 27:00 10k runner performance improvement with the beet juice from the University people?
What does Matthew Kisorio have to say about all the weak mind disease in Kenya?
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/suspended-kenyan-says-doping-is-common-8031835.htmlRenato also just made a statement that some Italian runner had symptoms of anemia with a hemoglobin level of 17.0 g/dl. Normal range of hemoglobin levels for a male is 13.0 g/dl to 16.0 g/dl.
This means that the statement by Renato is absolute complete nonsense according to thousands of published science journals, medical journals, exercise physiologists, and doctors on the planet earth.
Great analysis and reasoning.
Recordbook wrote:
I know this has been debated to death on dozens of threads but Renato sometimes (mainly when it is convenient for his theories) speaks of HCt and Hb levels as if an athletes blood volume is fixed.
The Hct and Hb tests use a fixed and very small amount of drawn blood to determine hematoctrit percentage and hemoglobin count from the 10 ml or so of blood that is drawn. What a normal blood test can't do is determine the total blood volume of an athlete. That is why Olympic cross-country skiers in the early 2000s used plasma-increasing drugs and transfusions to rebalance Hematocrit percentage back below 50%.
No one is arguing that runners could rely on EPO to obtain elite level performances without serious training. In fact, it stands to reason that EPO doping without endurance training would be dangerous and counterproductive as blood would get thick and hard to pump. However, as Renato mentions, one of the primary effects of endurance training is an increase in blood plasma volume. Couple good training with smart EPO micro-dosing and you get runners with slight boosts in Hct/ Hb counts while still getting significant but not incriminating performance boosts.
The argument that elite runners would not benefit from EPO use beause they have already maximized their usable amount of red blood cells is both biologically unlikely and counter to available results. The fastest climb of Alp de Huex still belongs to Pantini, Mr. 60% himself. In track, the 1500, 3000, 5000, 10000 meter world records were all achieved well prior to the ABP and most done before any sort of EPO test was available at all.
At a certain point, Ochahm's Razor comes into play and the simplest explanation becomes the only plausible explanation. Consider the following summation.
In 1992 the 5k WR was 12:58 and the 10K WR was 27:08. Both were achieved on modern surfaces by highly professional, well-paid and well trained athletes with high-altitude backgrounds.
Then a drug called EPO becomes available. At the same time, elite performances in two well-established sports, track and cycling, drastically improve. In the space of six years a flood of runners break the old 5k and 10k WRs and by 1998, just six years later the 5k WR is 19 seconds faster at 12:39 and the 10K WR is 48 seconds faster at 26:20! If we were to take the 1992 5k and 10k records in reverse those same amounts we would have to go nearly 25 years back to Ron Clarke circa 1966 during the introduction of synthetic tracks.
Then, a test for the EPO is introduced circa 2001. The test is not perfect and is best at detecting blatant recent use rather than low-level micro dosing. Still, the cascade of falling WRs slows to a trickle with only minor improvements in the 5k and 10k. In 2009 an athletic blood profile testing program is implemented that, when enforced, is designed to detect doping of various sorts by comparing changes in athlete's biological markers in addition to direct tests for banned drugs.
After the ABP is introduced in 2009, no one, not even the WR holder himself who was only in his late 20s in 2009, has come within 20 secs of the 10k world record or within 8 seconds of the 5K WR.
What should we conclude from this? The simplest answer is that the drug, EPO, improves endurance performance, including the performances of the best, most well trained athletes in the world. Is it possible that something else or a combination of factors could explain the phenomena that has in fact happened in track and cycling from 1990 through today?
Yes, it is possible.
But EPO does exist, it does boost red blood cell counts, the performance improvements did occur, the improved EPO and ABP tests were introduced, and sub 12:45 5ks and sub 26:40 10ks have disappeared from the realm of possibility after the introduction of the ABP.
So I have a question for the Renatos of the world.
What is the elite training that HG and Daniel Komen and Paula Radcliffe and Keninese Bekele were doing between 1995 and 2008 that Henry Rono and Said Auoita and Mirtus Yifter were not doing in the 1980s and that Caleb Ndiku and Mo Farah and Keninese Bekele and Jemima Sumgong are not doing now?
If someone can credibly answer that question then we can stop arguing about blood values and the like.
The training has been improved as well as the use of better equipment like lactate testing tech, altitude tents, apparel ,nutrition, and shoes. We also have 6 billion people on the planet which has resulted in more people running period. As well as a broader amount of knowledge being distributed and communicated by the internet. We are seeing more and more U.S. high school kids breaking 4 in the mile. Are they are on drugs? C'mon are you really so stupid to think drugs are the reason. People were doping back in the days of Rono and Yifter. Geez you guys are cynical are really ignorant.
Recordbook. Great post and historical summary presented with clear thinking. You do not have weak mind disease.
Your mind is strong...like Kudzu runner. He is so smart it hurts...but I still don't know where he hurts.
I liked that you mentioned a certain razor used for cutting down complexity to reveal clarity.
Rjm33, I don't know if you don't understand my English, or if you want to use what I say without using your brain.
When I say that Bordin won Olympics with 39.7 Hct and under 13 Hb, I give a REAL data about the values of an INDIVIDUAL who was Olympic Champion, for demonstrating that it's possible to win with similar values, AND THE FACT ATHLETES CAN'T RUN FAST WITH LOW VALUES IS A TOTAL BULLSHIT.
When I say that Genny Di Napoli had, NATURALLY, values of 52 and 18.5, and when had 17 HIS SYMPTOMS WERE THE SAME OF ANAEMIA, is for demonstrating that also high values don't mean anything, if are LOWER than the natural average of the athlete.
So, you continue to make reference to "thousands of published science journals, medical journals, exercise physiologists, and doctors pf the planet earth", and I say that the AVERAGE is something we can't consider, and we MUST not consider, when we speak about INDIVIDUALS.
Sorry if the REAL data are EXCEPTIONS for your thousands of published science journals, but the fact is that, when you find some athlete (or some person) with these data, for themselves the exception is exactly what is the norm for the subjects of your studies.
At the end of every thing, it's clear your experience is connected with what is written in your "holy books", not with a practic and pragmatic and experimental knowledge of the data of many athletes (and not necessiraly African).
Go out of your idea of "homologation" of results regarding the human race, and start to think of individual differences. After this, maybe you start to change some wrong opinion, accepting the fact there are persons OUT of the average of the studied subjects, and that some of these persons can also be athletes.
Go rjm33....
1) In theory everything is possible. Practically, no. The money they can win can't justify any investment in doping by their agents. Agents work with 15% of the earns of the athletes. They have about 5% of real expenditures for all the organization of the competitions : salary of some employee, telephone, fax, internet, travels, medical support. So, what can remain is about 10%.
One athlete of track, in top 10 in the World (for example, in 1500m such as Collins Cheboi 3'30", or in 5000 such as Thomas Longosiwa 12'49", or in steeple such as Clement Kemboi 8'12") in one season can earn a total amount of 20.000 - 30.000 USD, no more. This means an amount between 2000 and 3000 USD for the manager. Which interest can have the manager for spending money for giving "scientific help" to his athletes, with the risk to lose the reputation for so little money ?
Many continue to compare Kenyan athletes with cyclists, particularly with Lance Armstrong. This is like to compare a normal worker with the income of 2000 USD per month with Bill Gates.
2) Young athletes having talent as runners, coming from the areas producing the most part of top runners (Nandi, Marakwet, Mont Elgon), who are from the same genetic stock of the Champions (since there are a lot of kenyans without any talent as runners, and those are the one selected for the research....) :
a) Without training (or better, without OFFICIAL training, because they are NATURALLY trained by theie normal life) : 8'45" > 9'
b) With 30mpw (including 1 session fast, but without intervals) :
8'30" > 8'45"
c) With 50mpw (including 1 track session with short intervals) : 8'15" >< 8'30"
d) Under 18 years, there are NO ATHLETES running more than 50mpw.
I already explained that every year in Iten a Group of Polish Amateurs put some money for organizing a competition of 3000m for Young athletes, without coach and manager, on the track of Kamarin (bad track of earth).
In the edition 2013, 66 boys ran. Nobody ran slower than 9'05", the winner ran 8'16", the organizers put him in touch with me, and after two months of training (with one session only per day, and one session on track) he won the bronze medal in the World Youth Championships. His name is Titus Kipruto Kibyego, he ran 3'39"7 with 2 official months of training, and in 2014 ran his first 3000 steeple when 18, in 8'22".
He was not the only athletes of good level, because more than 40 ran under 8'45", and 63 under 9'.
This means that the responsible of the research can win the Nobel Prize as best talent-scouts in Kenya, since it's very difficult to find boys not able running under 9'30".... and this can show the value of the research, which is RUBBISH if referred to top runners.
I forgot to answer your last question.
Yes, there are many males living in Kenya training hard with more than 100mpw who don't have any possibility to run not sub 13' or 2:07', but under 14' and 2:18', also at sea level. Put in your mind that not all kenyans, and not all Kalenjins, are talented. The fact is that EVERYBODY tries to become a runner, since top athletes are the main example of how it's possible to change your life if you can succeed in running, so ALL THE TALENTS ARE IN THE NET. This is the main difference between Kenya/Ethiopia and Western Countries : we also have many talents, but the most part of them are not interested in running, and often are not interested in any physical activity.
I'm simply asking what he regards as the difference in talent.
Renato, thanks very much! That talent is certainly incredible. In a far bigger country, of course, you find maybe half a dozen to a dozen 18 year old Americans in high school on 50-70 mpw running around 8:15-20 3k, but there is just nothing like the #'s of Kenyans that break through to levels close to or superior to American records from 800-marathon, and the U.S. is roughly the 3rd to 5th best nation for distance running.
camera advice wrote:
Why the sh!t is the camera sideways?
So you can't see the part where he receives an injection in the butt.
Imagine if American runners trained as hard as American fans argue that Jamaicans and Kenyans are doped. Just how fast would they run?