ADVICE REQUESTED: Please Help a Stagnated Distance Runner in His Last Season

I do not think I have asthma.

I have had the tests done for blood problems and I am sure they would have caught that. I had bad allergies during the spring but during races I feel both my breathing and legs can be a limiting factor depending on the race.

I have no leg length discrepancy or alignment problem either, so I am running out of problems to look for.

questioner wrote:

just a thought in another direction here...

have you had a thorough physical with blood work testing for all of the usual issues that make you too tired to run?

you don't mention fatigue but if you were anemic, hypothyroid, etc...you may not even realize that you are tired and are continuing to train on through it which is going to break you down and cause injuries.

I had mono during the summer of 2003 and tried to train through it.

Then last summer, I was tested for anemia because on every run I felt exhausted but nothing came up.

During just about every summer a few weeks in I feel exhausted on many runs, easy or hard, no matter what time of day I run them. I have never been quite sure why. I doubt it is the heat as I do fine on the odd hot spring day.

Well, it is good to see someone similar make the improvements.

6'2" 117 seems quite a severe physique indeed!

Thanks for the good wishes.

HSDR:

Notwithstanding may have been harsh, but his advice was spot on. The four weeks you posted show that you're taking a "smorgasboard" approach to training: take a bit of this, and a bit of that, and mix it all together. Just about every coach I know will tell you that "you can only serve one master." In other words, follow a program all the way through. Each program has its own balance of progression and recovery. When you mix and match, you risk doing too much of one thing and not enough of another. Like too much hard running, and not enough recovery...

My final word of advice is to stop reading about all these coaches and simplify your running. If all you got out of the Hadd thread was to slow down on easy days, you really missed the point of the discussion...

Yeah, what Dave_D said!

I am reading through all this advice and replies and thinking: He is trying to break 5:00 and 11:00!!!! For Christ sakes there is all this talk of progression and LT, and VO2max, and whatever else. This is all ridiculously overcomplicating something that is not complicated. At your size and weight you either are a distance runner or you are NOT. I have never known anyone who just ran consistently and did not hit decent times eventually in something. If you are not sick and you are actually running 6-7 days per week you will run well or you just don't have it in you. At that size though I wonder if you don't need more protein, iron, vitamins or all of the above. You seem like a very bright kid for 17 years old though so you probably can figure this out.

I know you know this, but runnin gat college will be terrible unless you can run 4:10 for 1500, 9:10 for 3k and similar times for 5k/10k. It just will be painful to try and keep up. Just focus on getting better, then focus on what school you want to go to (one that makes sense), then last make a try for running at the college level. You will have five years to do it, so that works in your favor.

Good luck.

"Haile Gebrselassie is 5'4" like I am and even heavier, and his 5,000 is some 5:18 faster than mine."

Well, yeah. But he's a DEVELOPED 5'4". That means that he is working with an adult body.

There are people your age that are not developed fully. Men don't, in fact, stop growing till 21, normally. So the genetic deck or whatever is stacked against you that way - high school is just TOO EARLY for you to exhibit growth in your talent the way Webb did, since you seem to be a late bloomer. My money is on you being faster, relatively speaking, when you're completely done growing.

Comparing yourself to Webb's kind of unfair, from this perspective. I mean, you've seen what he looked like at the Pre Classic 2001? He looked younger than the elites, yes, but still developed for his age. You're not like that, unless I miss my guess. But it'll happen.

I think that you care about running too much. It's not the end of the world if you don't run D1.

Backing off physically, while a very good idea and what I would try in your situation, is NOT the only piece of the puzzle. Back off MENTALLY! Do you spend all of your training time focused on a single goal, hitching your wagon to a star, as the expression goes? Do you suffer through them? Do you constantly worry about pace and perceived exertion and max heart-rate?

Admirable that you're so focused on your goal, but it's unhealthy to do so. Life is for living, not for running. Look at Roger Bannister: he became a famed neurologist after retiring from running. Not the world's first verifiable 3:59, not the Empire Games win over John Landy, the Australian who ran 3:58 not too long after his performance, made his life what it was.

Neurology - being a doctor - did.

Relax. Forget about stuff. Just run. Not run hard, not run excruciating distances. Just run.

Today I ran the 3200 at our divisional championships in 11:15. The time seems to confirm the frustrating fact that is possible to spend many hours in difficult conditions training and see next to no commensurate result in a race.

hfhgf wrote:

I never ran a 3200 in my life as slow as your PR, and while I could have, I didn't run D1.

It's always all about Flome, isn't it. He could have run D1 but didn't. And he was way faster than "stagnated" runner. So it must be impossible for "stagnated" to run D1.

Well, I'm going to make this post about me, and draw a different conclusion than you, Flome. I ran D1. And there were times when I was overtrained and would have awful races--4:30 mile, 8:50 3k. Once I got out of those periods I would immediately return to the norm, which generally hovered around 4:05 and 8:10. So if stagnated is truly overtrained, it's possible that he's ripe for some big imporvements once his body is rested.

Another point: there were some members of our team who ran as slow as 16:30 for 5k. Coach liked walk-ons provided they worked hard.[/quote]

Few things for you:

1) Dude, that high school runner isn't even near the same category as you. You call a 4:30 mile a bad race for you, well his PR is 5:14! How can you compare the two of you?

2) Not sure why it matters to you that I could have run D1 - had offers from three different schools to do so, and I didn't even actively look for more. You yourself mentioned that your D1 school had guys as slow as 16:30 run for them - well, that does two things - a) shows that this high school runner couldn't do that because he can't run 16:30, and b) shows that I easily could have because I ran faster than 16:30 as a junior in high school and got down to 14:58 post high school.

3) I'm not sure what the point of your post was. If it was to discredit me, it didn't do that. If it was to show that an 11:19 3200 runner could run D1, it didn't do that. I think the only thing it did was allow you to mention your PRs and the fact that you ran D1. Well, good for you!

Note - D1 coaches don't just want people who work hard. There are a lot of hard working 19 minute 5,000 guys out there.

Few things for you:

1) Dude, that high school runner isn\'t even near the same category as you. You call a 4:30 mile a bad race for you, well his PR is 5:14! How can you compare the two of you?

2) Not sure why it matters to you that I could have run D1 - had offers from three different schools to do so, and I didn\'t even actively look for more. You yourself mentioned that your D1 school had guys as slow as 16:30 run for them - well, that does two things - a) shows that this high school runner couldn\'t do that because he can\'t run 16:30, and b) shows that I easily could have because I ran faster than 16:30 as a junior in high school and got down to 14:58 post high school.

3) I\'m not sure what the point of your post was. If it was to discredit me, it didn\'t do that. If it was to show that an 11:19 3200 runner could run D1, it didn\'t do that. I think the only thing it did was allow you to mention your PRs and the fact that you ran D1. Well, good for you!

Note - D1 coaches don\'t just want people who work hard. There are a lot of hard working 19 minute 5,000 guys out there.[/quote]

1) The point was that when you\'re overtrained, it\'s possible to post results far slower than you\'re capable of.

2) The point here was that mentioning you could have run D1 but didn\'t was irrelevant to the discussion at large. You\'re in your mid 30s and you still feel compelled to point put that you could have been a D1 athlete if you had wanted to. That smacks of insecurity.

3)The point of the the post was the above two points. If stagnated is overtrained, it\'s possible that he\'ll see large improvements that could lead to somethign in the 16:30 vicinity. And at that level, there are D1 schools that would allow him to walk-on.

Finally, I mentioned my experiences to prove a point--that the\'re irrelevant to the discussion at large. Just liek your mention of \"I could have run D1 if I wanted to\" was irrelevant.

fgdfgf wrote:

Finally, I mentioned my experiences to prove a point--that the're irrelevant to the discussion at large.

No, you mentioned your PRs and D1 experience just to mention them - you like to talk about yourself. Good luck with that.

Flome wrote:

fgdfgf wrote:

Finally, I mentioned my experiences to prove a point--that the're irrelevant to the discussion at large.

No, you mentioned your PRs and D1 experience just to mention them - you like to talk about yourself. Good luck with that.

Thanks.

I figure if you're 36 and have kids and can get away with talking about yourself non-stop, then maybe there is a future in that for me, too.

dsfggf wrote:

Flome wrote:

No, you mentioned your PRs and D1 experience just to mention them - you like to talk about yourself. Good luck with that.

Thanks.

I figure if you're 36 and have kids and can get away with talking about yourself non-stop, then maybe there is a future in that for me, too.

But you weren't talking about me, you and I were both talking about you - as you designed it, as you like it. Good for you. Next time, if you're going to talk about yourself, at least have a helpful tidbit in there based on that experience. As it was, you just mentioned your PRs, the fact that you ran D1, and then you didn't connect that in any way to his situation to show that he could do it too. In fact, you set some baseline low standards that he's lightyears away from reaching. Try harder next time.

2 steps to take:

1. do a search of this board to find threads containing issues associated with feeling constant fatigue. go to a doctor and ask to be tested for each of these. for anemia - ask for a ferritin test (this has come up alot on this board) ask for a TSH test for thyroid, etc. these are the top 2 reasons i've read that affect training. make sure you go in there calmly and say "i'm concerned that there may be some underlying reason why i am injured and fatigued and i'd like to rule out any medical problems".

2. If the tests all come back negative, it's time to just stop. take the indoor season off and run no more than 3-5 miles a day for the next month. find something else to fill you time, gain a few pounds, become a bit of a slacker, and just relax. if this helps, you still have some time to salvage a bit of your outdoor season. if you can't pull it back together then just make a fresh start in college and don't think about trying to walk on until you can run for 1 year without any injuries.

best of luck

Flome wrote:

dsfggf wrote:

Thanks.

I figure if you're 36 and have kids and can get away with talking about yourself non-stop, then maybe there is a future in that for me, too.

But you weren't talking about me, you and I were both talking about you - as you designed it, as you like it. Good for you. Next time, if you're going to talk about yourself, at least have a helpful tidbit in there based on that experience. As it was, you just mentioned your PRs, the fact that you ran D1, and then you didn't connect that in any way to his situation to show that he could do it too. In fact, you set some baseline low standards that he's lightyears away from reaching. Try harder next time.

actually, i did connect it to his situation--by showing that it's possible to have big imporvements if you're overtrained, and also to point out that some teams to take walk-ons who aren't running that much faster than he is.

you tried to use your experience as proof that he couldn't run for D1. i opened your eyes to the fact that your experience doesn't always make the world go round.

next time, i think YOU should try harder.

as usual, you're makign an ass of yourself.

HSDR,

First off, Where do you live? Maybe there is someone on this board that lives near you that could actually meet you & run with you, because that would be the best way to see where you're going wrong.

2nd... You said there's a 4:29 miler on your team. Have you asked him what his training is like? & have you tried to run with him? If you want to be a "good" runner, then run with the good runners as much as possible. Sure you might get dropped, but you'll slowly close the gap if you keep trying, day in & day out.

dsfggf wrote:

as usual, you're makign an ass of yourself.

Um...AM NOT!

You two! Dont make me pull this car over! I swear on something holy I will stop this car right now and give the both of you a beating on the side of the road.

Lets play a game. Lets see who can stay silent the longest, OK? First one to talk has to buck up and coach a runner for real. Ready...set...go!

Are you always so pesamistic. Progress usually comes in steps, and if i read rite you just set a pr and you are still bitching, why? And, its just the beginning of the season you don't have to be fast untill may.

I believe your problem is in your head. Are you the type of guy who has his pre race ritual, do you get nerves before the race?

Reading your posts you remind me a lot of myself in highschool i ran very hard, did very well in practice but when it came time for races i ran like shit. But, luckilly towards the end of my senior season i realized what i was doing, runnng became to important i wasn't having fun and i never improved, so i relaxed on race day, iwent out of my way to do something stupid, i made myself smile and gave my mom a hug and a kiss before each race. Racing became fun, i still ran hard, but i enjyed it. Once i chenged my behavior i went from a 11:20 3200 to a 10:50 and a 5:12 to a 4:58. Neither of my times where great, but it was to late to get any better because of my earlier mental blunders, but it was still an improvrement. Now I have run a 15:30 5k and a 33:20 10k and would have probably went to d2 nationals this fall if i had not broken my foot in the spring.

So, my advice to you is to chill out and start to have some fun, be happy when you set a pr or even run close to a pr in January. Work hard when it is appropriate and oh yah chill out and have fun.

I had some tests in the summer that were negative.

I just seem to get tired for some reason at times.

As for doing nothing for several months, I cannot do that. Running is what I do and if I simply stopped for several months that would be very bad physically and mentally.