ATTN: Everyone who disagrees with me: Arguements against training in racing flats -- help please

I don't know what kind of cat you have barebonz, but mine definitely doesn't run 100mpw. Think Garfield :) I'm not so worried about my lower legs or feet, but the skin that covers them. Prolonged barefoot walking/running is a necessary prerequisite for barefoot racing, particularly on asphalt, to thicken the skin on the soles. I can't go around barefoot enough because they won't let me go to class or the dining hall barefoot. Wearing shoes -- and even socks -- keeps your skin too soft to run on pavement without mad scrapeage. As a footnote, I remember reading about some guide published by Osama instructing his followers to wear shoes and socks for a week or so before undercover travel to soften their feet so they won't be rock hard like barefoot cave dwellers' feet. Kinda tips off the authorities when they remove their shoes for bomb check at the airport.

How does a 10mm heel to toe drop compare to the norm?

I think the only reason why the early human/hunter gatherer thing comes up is as evidence that footwear is not necessary to an active human life.

No I don't race barefoot for a few reasons:

as someone else said, I've got to wear something, or else I will not be admitted to most places of business. So I don't have the time to be barefoot all the time and there fore get the thick pads that would enable to run barefoot on asphault. In the times where I've run barefoot on asphault/concrete (either because a shoe was bugging me ore just to experiment) the impact was never really a problem, but all the crap of the surface was. That blistered my feet, but impact wise, I was fine.

So I look aat getting as little shoe as possible for business or when on artificial surfaces, and unshod when on sand or grass.

The norm for training shoes is 12mm with some as low as 10. Flats are more like 8-10mm. However, I just measured a Brooks Hyperion Racer at 12mm. You can't get a true measurement by looking at the outside since most midsole wrap up onto the upper. I cut the shoe down the center from toe to heel using a bandsaw.

any comments on the H street question??

This guy may be worth contacting:

Edward C. Frederick,

nederick@exeter-research.com

President, Exeter Research, Inc.

• Research and development services for the sports and fitness industries

• Consultation on new product development, advanced concepts and, biomechanics research and functional testing of new products

• Design, manufacture and sales of special test equipment and software for traction, impact shock attenuation, and shoe flexibility testing

http://www.exeter-research.com/ECFResume.html

do you or do you not wanna be the best runner you can be??? it's not that hard to callous the feet. just do a lot of your running on a treadmill or track. no glass there. your feet should callous in a week or so. if they don't it's because you're running incorrectly. barefoot is the NATURAL way. doesn't take long to adapt. there are HUGE efficiency gains from running barefoot. the big problem with shoes (just as problematic if not more than heel height) is the shortening of feet/lower leg muscles caused by snugness of a shoe. if a shoe fits "well" it's gonna shorten these muscles. if it's loose enough so that it doesn't, it will feel floppy and loose. there's no such thing as a correctly fitting shoe. catch-22.

wahoo you just wrong! :) doesn't take long to callous the feet. i speak from experience. i only run barefoot. however, i don't believe everyone can do this. nor do i believe everyone can run in flats.

I don't disagree with you -- however as footwear is necessary component of my daily life I minimize that aspecet.

I run in the H Streets. They are my go-to shoe at this point. Ran 14 in them yesterday. I'm just a low-16/low-34 5K/10K runner, so somewhere between hardcore and the folks on the street that you described.

Trackhead: Have you every used the H Streets with the insoles ripped out? If so, what has been your experience with that? I want to go to a thinner sock when the warmer weather comes, and I'm right in between sizes. Any advice on that conundrum? Thanks.

Wow. You are the man barebonz. I'm carving an idol to represent you right now. You're clearly right barefoot running can be done, but just isn't for everyone.

so then why don't you address any of my arguments? someone as passionate about running as you are can't run 20 or so mi per week barefoot so that he can race barefoot?? why isn't your crusade for everyone to race barefoot on the track? maybe it's cause you're not biomechanically strong enough to do it? that's ok, but guess what, most aren't biomechanically strong enough to train in flats either. that's why they wear trainers.

a more cynical view would be that you have some fantasy about become the "minimalist shoe guy". one step above the running times shoe guy. or starting your own minimalist shoe store or working as the minimalist shoe consultant to a running shoe company or something. not much money in preaching to people about running barefoot.

wahoo you're an ass. my point is NOT that i'm the man. you minimalist shoe guys are the elitists.

barebonz: I'm sorry for my previous post. In hindsight it was obnoxious, but I resent the bit in your reply about my being an elitist -- I never posted on any of these threads that I think I'm better than others because I train in Zoom Waffles and they wear the Beast. Also, I don't recall posting that everyone should switch or they suck. To each his own. But I am interested in what you have to say. I hate paying a lot for shoes, and hate the possibility that I'm falling into a minimalist shoe guy money trap. Even if there's a small chance I might be able to make due without I'd like to try. How did you get into this barefoot running, where do you train, and can you do it in the winter? Have you ever stepped on anything sharp? Suppose I can toughen the balls of my feet and heel pad. What about my soft arch?

yeah wasn't necessarily calling you an elitist, just the minimalist fanatics who make fun of everyone wearing trainers. i live in the deep south so cold isn't a problem. right now i do all of my training on the track or treadmill cause i run at night or early morning and can't see the road. also people think you're crazy if you run around barefoot and i don't like to look like a lunatic. if you're blistering on the track it means you're not running efficiently anymore. same as getting injured when wearing shoes. again i'm not saying it's for everyone, but i'd recommend going to a track and going for a run and see how it goes.

Sounds like a good choice to me ! I also train in the precision. As you say, it's quite a bit more flat-like than the rider. Flexible sole and a slipper like upper. It also has excellent "road feel", and a nice combination of a firm heel, but a nice sweet spot under the ball of the foot. If you absorb most of the impact on the balls of your feet, it's quite well cushioned, but if you land on your heels, it's pretty hard. So the shoe encourages you to run lightly.

I've also tried out the spacers. 10mm drop, like Asics flats. As you say, much lighter than (and lower heel than) the phantom or aero (both of these shoes are "heavy flats"). Given the other shoes you tend to wear (cushioned trainers), the spacer is probably a better choice than the revolver.

Thanks barebonz. Right now I only run barefoot for strides on grass once or sometimes twice per week. This week it probably won't happen though since we got a bit of snow in VA. I'll try incorporating some barefoot treadmill running in the mornings. In the afternoons I train with a team so I don't have any say in where we run. Have you ever run long on rugged trails or roads barefoot?