Mo Farah's 800m ability

ventolin^3 wrote:

i'll split up those 49.5 - 49.75 / 26'20 - 26'25 to make it easier for posters to see :

....!!

^This is a fair call .. pick a couple of numbers Mo has never run, and then use them to make some other numbers he never WILL run. At least it's consistent.

50.00 / 26'30 ->

1'45.86

2'14.68

3'28.44

3'44.83

4'44.00

7'18.85

12'38.39

This is interesting. You give Jim Ryun approx 5 seconds over Mo at 400, and then you increase (???) that for 800m, then approx 5 seconds again over Mo at 1500m. Surely that puts Ryun still far ahead of Mo at 3000m?

wtfunny wrote:This is interesting. You give Jim Ryun approx 5 seconds over Mo at 400, and then you increase (???) that for 800m, then approx 5 seconds again over Mo at 1500m. Surely that puts Ryun still far ahead of Mo at 3000m?

eh ??

learn to read

you clearly have no clue about math

i stated on an earlier page that there was overlap in mo's ~ 49.50 - 49.75 / 26'20 - 26'25 for 3k/5k when more expanded parameters posted

don't waste my time

ventolin^3 wrote:

We see the same thing in the 5000

more absurdity...

No, it is not absurd. It is the truth. Explain why you think it is absurd to that I said: sometimes they show up in 12:45 shape, sometimes they show up in 13:20+ shape. You obviously don't watch much track.

ventolin^3 wrote:

mo ran ~ 55-flat for 1st lap which was still to quick for him but he didn't commit suicide by trying to follow Asbel's 53.9+ & probably crumbling badly on last lap

55 flat is the perfect pace for a 3:26 run. If Farah could hold 55s laps he would have. It was a still day, great conditions, he had some visual markers ahead to chase also.

In reality 55 flat was too fast for Mo as you have said, because Mo is a 3:28/3:29 runner.

huh69 wrote:

considering how centro is a 1500 guy and still is consistently 2 seconds behind mo at his own event, and is a 1:44 high guy, it isn't crazy to think mo could match that (though he probably couldnt run much quicker), centro has more speed than farah but still cant match him at 1500 so 1000m is probably where they meet: @ 800m centro has an edge but not by a whole lot and the idea that farah couldnt run at LEAST 1:46 is outright dumb

Perfect example of why Farah is NOT a 1:44 guy. Centrowitz has far more speed than Farah but less endurance. He cannot hold together for 3:28 but is much quicker over the shorter distance.

Imagine Farah vs Centro over 400m.

Regardless, he does one 1500 a year (if that).

If he focussed on the event and aimed to peak at Monaco each year then in my mind he would simply have to be a 3.27 athlete (at least).

I also agree with ventolin about his 'real' ability at 5000 and 10000. This guy is phenomenally good. Too good to be true in my opinion...

The Monaco 1500s are the closest he's come to revealing the whole charade.

As for the 800, probably 1.44 if he applied himself. Again, a joke really.

ventolin^3 wrote:

[quote]ukathleticscoach wrote:So why does he not go for the WR

go ask him

he has lotta wrs in him : 2k/3k/5k

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I don't need to ask him. The reason is he would fall short. If someone really drops the hammer he falls slightly short look at the recent xc or GNR

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As for his 1500m he was only only solo on the last lap

learn to watch

from the gun Asbel had basically shot away leaving mo to draft the pack until the bell

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Re-watch the race & learn to admit when you are wrong. Mo largely had cover until around 1:40 in the race. He even had cover though some of the last lap. Cover counts if its off another runner not just off the pacers!

This race actually showed what would happen if he was in a WR pace - he would drop off the pacers. There is more to setting records than just physical ability. You need a front runners metality and Mo does not have it.

He actually does a lot of training as a 1500m runner as he specialises in a fast couple of laps in races.

'3'28.91 - 1.925 = 3'26.99

& we have still offered him nothing for uneven pace !!!

i'm going with top-end of that estimate range'

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What range you have just given one time 3:26.99.

Greys anatomy wrote:

Regardless, he does one 1500 a year (if that).

If he focussed on the event and aimed to peak at Monaco each year then in my mind he would simply have to be a 3.27 athlete (at least).

I also agree with ventolin about his 'real' ability at 5000 and 10000. This guy is phenomenally good. Too good to be true in my opinion...

The Monaco 1500s are the closest he's come to revealing the whole charade.

As for the 800, probably 1.44 if he applied himself. Again, a joke really.

That Monaco track is designed especially for fast runs over middle distances, probably illegally. We all know what corruption the IAAF are capable of. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to create an illegally fast track in their own backyard, in order to take away from the fact that the current 1500 - 5k records were done on EPO. No one got within about 3 secs of EL G's times from 2005 until about 4 years ago. Now, all the super fast times are set on Monaco. Where are all the fast times on the traditional tracks of Oslo, Zurich, Brussels, etc, late in season when athletes aim to be at a peak?

I suspect Mo would have trouble breaking 3:30, even in ideal conditions on any other track. Kiplagat and Kiprop don't seem able to break 3:29 other than at Monaco.

I reckon the Monaco track jumps up time over 800 from between 0.5 and 1 sec, and over 1500m, between 1 and 2 secs.

''3'28.91 - 1.925 = 3'26.99'

Hang on are you talking about 2015 race or 2013 as he never ran 3:28.91

Greys anatomy wrote:

Regardless, he does one 1500 a year (if that).

If he focussed on the event and aimed to peak at Monaco each year then in my mind he would simply have to be a 3.27 athlete (at least).

I also agree with ventolin about his 'real' ability at 5000 and 10000. This guy is phenomenally good. Too good to be true in my opinion...

The Monaco 1500s are the closest he's come to revealing the whole charade.

As for the 800, probably 1.44 if he applied himself. Again, a joke really.

ya, no doubt moe is too good to be true.

and ya, the 328 is off the charts, as he can go 327. which is 1 sec or so off the world record.

all the while he might be worth 145 at 800m.

with a 49-50 sec 400m

combined with 10k golds at og worlds.

all of which does not compute.

then again, komen, elg, aouita, morcelli, bekele, were epo program guys.

++

so moe might be, actually, fair and square among the best or GOAT.

it tis a dirty dirty sport.

Well Dave Moorcroft ran 1.46 I don't think anyone would think he's faster than Mo over 800 or any other distance

Metric Miler wrote:55 flat is the perfect pace for a 3:26 run

no

55.0 is 3'26-low pace

55-mid is more acceptable but it woud have required mo to have been drafted at 55-mid pace for 2.75 laps not effectively solo

to run 55.0 solo is akin to a paced 54-low which was far too fast

If Farah could hold 55s laps he would have

with someone immediately ahead to pace/draft him he mighta just survived

however, he had no effective drafting at all so 55-flat was far too quick - akin to a drafted 54-low

It was a still day, great conditions, h

e had some visual markers ahead to chase also

no

visual markers do not offer drafting

In reality 55 flat was too fast for Mo as you have said, because Mo is a 3:28/3:29 runner

no

learn to watch the race again

55-flat solo was too quick, it was akin to 54-low with pacers which tells us it was too quick

if he'd been paced/drafted thru in 55-flat i have little doubt he couda followed that & if drafted thru at simila pace until bell i have little doubt he wouda hung on for ~ 3'27-flat

utter nonsense

the 400 post-'00 track record is 44.3 by lashawn who twice ran 43.9 in same year at other venues

explain to the world how a track can be so fast as you claim for middle distance but utterly crap for 400 ???

utter nonsense

explain what physics can make a track utterly crap for 400 but so good as you claim for 1500 ???

only because Asbel has targeted monaco in past few years for a fast time after a mini mid-season break

the other elite guys have generally joined him because they know it will be fast

if Asbel hadn't bothered with monaco as a wr attempt the times woud still be poor

nonsense

the guys aim to peak for the globals not brussels/zurich/oslo

monaco is the last big meet before the globals so the guys effectively are showing their global meet shape in a circuit meet

oslo has rubbish weather generally & is a nothing meet nowdays

zurich/brussels are post-championships with everyone very, very tired after long long season

please explain why there are very few if any great runs in rieti nowdays ???

nonsense

i suppose you will claim that mo has been lucky to win golds only in daegu, london, moscow & peking & if those globals had been at any other venues he woudn't have won !!!

explain to the world how a track you claim is so good for 1500 is so utter crap for 400 ???

you are obviously clueless about the sport

go fetch the pacer's time to the bell or ~ 1k in Asbel's/silas' fastest non-monaco runs ???

how about the fact that in 1 of Asbel's monaco runs he had magut pacing for him !!!

magut is a guy who went onto run 3'30.6 !!!

the monaco organisers pay for as good a quality of pacers as they can find for a meet where Asbel has said he wants to have his main season shot at 1500wr

utterly laughable

then it has to be 0.25 - 0.5s for 400

then explain to universe why post-'00 record is crap 44.3 by lashawn who ran 43.9 twice in the same year at other venues ???

why didn't lashawn run 43.4 - 43.6 there instead of 44.3 track record ???

no

you do

you want his opinion - go ask

clueless

he has already 1 wr - the indoor 2 mile wr which is no joke & broke one of those ethiopians records

laughable

he's hardly run x-country this decade

& i seem to remember geb was nothing great at x-country either & did just fine on the track

as for GNR that was years ago when just testing the waters at 1/2M

he also had kennster veering off to the side preventing mo a good chance to overtake him

nonsense

you clearly can't analyse a race

no

the only cover acceptable is having drafting from a guy immediately ahead of you

mo had virtually none until the bell

then he was in clear 2nd until 1300 when passed by 2 but then had to run wide in home stretch out into lane 2 in order to try to pass them which he coudn't

mo got some drafting on last bend mostly offset having to veer off into lane 2 in home stretch trying to reclaim 2nd

on last bend

however most of that offset by having to veer wide into lane 2 in home stretch

yes

he got some drafting on last bend but mostly offsett by having to veer into lane 2 in home stretch trying to pass them

nonsense

all this race showed was that mo ran a 3'28.9 virtually solo to bell then some drafting on last bend then having to veer into lane 2 in home-stretch

you don't say ???

laughable

mo ran 3'28.9 effectively solo

i cannot recall anyone even breaking 3'32 in history of sport in same circumstances

eh ?

i haven't seen him in any 1500s even in euro or commonwealth championships ?

clueless

see the range i gave in theoretical estimates

Metric Miler wrote:Perfect example of why Farah is NOT a 1:44 guy. Centrowitz has far more speed than Farah but less endurance. He cannot hold together for 3:28 but is much quicker over the shorter distance.

Imagine Farah vs Centro over 400m.

no

wrong example

i told you already mo is much more comparable to austine choge than any other elte middle-distance/distance guy as he too came down from 5k to 1500 & even 800 in gus's case

gus ran 1'44.8 in a slow tactical 800 which was basically just a mass last 200 sprint won by King Rudy in 1'44.0 when he ran 1'42.0 that year

if that race had been hard from gun, gus wouda run 1'44-flat/low

that offers enough credence for mo in a flat-out 800 to be around 1'45-flat mark +/- coupla tenths either way

ventolin^3 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:55 flat is the perfect pace for a 3:26 run

no

55.0 is 3'26-low pace

55-mid is more acceptable but it woud have required mo to have been drafted at 55-mid pace for 2.75 laps not effectively solo

55-flat solo was too quick, it was akin to 54-low with pacers which tells us it was too quick

if he'd been paced/drafted thru in 55-flat i have little doubt he couda followed that & if drafted thru at simila pace until bell i have little doubt he wouda hung on for ~ 3'27-flat

Nope. 55 low is perfect for 3:26 as you said Mo is capable of. 55 mid is 3:28 pace, learn some basic arithmetic.

Farah is a 3:28 runner. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Plus, this drafting nonsense is really getting on my nerves. Anyone will run faster with less air resistance, perfect conditions would be in a vacuum with no air. But this is unrealistic and does not indicate what the runner is capable of, air exists unfortunately. And you have no evidence as to how much exactly drafting behind another runner really saves you, so stop taking fixed chunks of time away from a performance until you can back it up.

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You didn't give a range I quoted the time you put. One time is not a range

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Your estimate for his 800m is slow considering you mistakenly think he is a 3:26 runner.

ventolin^3 wrote:

mo ran 3'28.9 effectively solo

i cannot recall anyone even breaking 3'32 in history of sport in same circumstances

I thought you had seen all the top races of the last 40 years from your lazyboy?

Coe ran a 3:31.9 effectively solo in 81, off far more uneven splits than Mo.

In Monaco Mo had drafting in the first 80m, on the first bend from about 150 - until early in the straight, about 220m, and then on the last lap for about 100m round the last bend. That's a total of 250m drafting from a possible 'perfect' 1100m to the bell. That means he didn't get 850m that he could be entitled to in a perfect scenario.

850/400 x 0.7 = 1.49 sec. Lets call it 1.5. That brings it down to 3:27.4, on the exceptionally fast track of Monaco. And he had a mental marker in front of him setting a pretty even pace, something which you 'calculations' don't cater for. If Kiprop hadn't been in the race and Mo had found himself in front from 400m with just a couple of distant rabbits in front, dropping out at 1000m, then Mo would certainly have been slower and probably outside 3:30.

Yet you claim his run was worth 3:27 flat, based purely on lack of drafting? That's 1.9 sec you've hacked off, when he clearly gets 250m of drafting not the 0m you state!

If we look at Coe's Stockholm run as a comparison, one which you clearly do not consider to be in 'similar circumstances' as Mo's effectively solo run, then we see that he had far less drafting, about 100m.

He is in front until 100m, then Robinson comes past and runs the first part of the bend very wide, providing no drafting. It is not even clear thereafter that Robinson moves into the inside directly in front of Coe, but a generous estimate is that he is in front of Coe from c. 120m until 220m, when he again drifts out to the line with lane 2, providing no effective drafting for Coe.

Coe runs 1000m out of the first 1100m without any drafting. That's 1000/400 x 0.7 = 1.75 secs.

We then have the lack of anyone in front for Coe from 800m onwards. Mo had someone within 10m in front as a mental marker and pace maker all the way to the finish.

You state that Kiprop's first 400m in Monaco was 53.9. It was not. He was between 3 and 4 m behind the leader in 3rd place at this point. That's a minimum of 0.4 secs, offering him a 400 split time of no quicker than 54.1. I would suggest 54.2 as being more likely, just 0.1 shy of EL G's corresponding WR split. Farah went through in 54.9/55.0. Perfect for someone supposedly in 3:27 shape. You are now suggesting that as Mo only had 150m of drafting on that first lap, it was really akin to running 54 low with drafting! Which you state was "way too fast". This is rubbish. There have been many "fast times" run off a 55.0 or faster first lap. It was a perfect split for him.

If you really do believe and hold to the view that Farah's first 400 was equivalent to a 54 low based on lack of drafting for 250m on that lap, taking off, what, 0.7, then by association you must therefore be claiming that Coe's 52.4 first lap in Stockholm, with no more than 100m of drafting given to him on that opening lap, must be equivalent to at least 51.7! You are effectively saying that Coe's 52.4 would have felt the same as a 51.7 (faster even, as he had less drafting than Mo) had he been drafted perfectly. That then has serious considerations when calculating the worth of the race given even splits. The damage was already done on the first lap for Coe. If a 54.9 first lap is too fast, then a 52.4 (WR pace for 1km) is off the charts and worth at least 2 secs off the final time, regardless of lack of drafting.

Farah's splits, on the latest, fastest mondo track with 250m of drafting and a rabbit within range for the duration of the whole 1500m were: -

41.1, 56.0, 56.4, 55.4 or

54.9, 56.2, 56.5, 41.3.

N.B. the onscreen clock appears to be 0.1 behind the actual official clock and split times as they go through 400/800, ...the finish, so although Farah goes through 300m in 41.0 according to the onscreen clock, i have added on 0.1 sec to each corresponding split times.

Whichever set you take and whichever way you look at it, they are about as even as it gets in the real world. You can only take off a couple of tenths for perfect even splits.

As great a run as Farah's was, I would suggest that the hypothetical disadvantage he incurred through lack of drafting, which itself wasn't as much as you have claimed, was compensated for by the advantage of having someone in striking distance in front of him, setting a very even pace throughout, right up to the end.

Farah is a 3:28 mid-3:28 high runner on the very fast track of Monaco. Claims of 3:27 flat are exaggerated.