Great NY Times Piece on Mary Cain: Mary Cain is Growing Up Fast

rojo wrote:

ONe other thing about the article that wasn't my favorite. It talked a lot about how much faster HS girls are than 2001 nd said that was cause of Title IX and this changed ID not making them skinny and strong.

Well boys track is a ton faster. I think it's all related to the Internet. Coaches all across the globe can learn how to coach and HSers know instantly where they stand in terms of their time. When I was in HS, my buddy had to wait 3 weeks until TFN came out to see if he was still top 10 in the country.

I competed in the pre Internet and coached during the Internet and I can tell you for a fact that the internet and more specifically Dyestat had a lot to do with the faster H.S. times. In H.S. our goal was to make to the T&FNews cut off for getting your performance listed. If the 4x8 cutoff was 8:00, then you knew you needed to train for and run 7:59. The problem was, you only got to see about 3 T&FNews lists in a season. You could run 7:55 and think you are setting the world on fire and find out that a team in Indiana ran 7:50 a weeks earlier. Sometime there would be weeks before you knew the top performances in your own state and you would be on summer vacation before you knew all of the top performances that year.

What Dyestat and Letsrun did was let kids know what was possible and what to shot for and it also let them see how other kids were training.

sp2 wrote:

Stick with eharmony wrote:

Honestly who the fvck cares?! Cain and Al Dopezar are overrated hacks.

Actually, in the real world, lots and lots of people care quite a bit about Cain and Salazar.

NO ONE cares even a TINY bit about the opinions of a low-life, basement-dwelling douchebag like you.

No one.

Now that I've educated you a little, you can go back to your full-time occupation: wanking in mommy's basement.

Hmmmm, sounds like you care.

Magazine writing style does not allow you to jump all over the place, the fact is, this article touched on more things than you normally see. There is no way the writer could have gotten into everything you mentioned; you have to stay on topic, which is a Cain chronology. Also, from memory, I don't think Salazar was ever Slaney's coach of record, I think he worked with her twice for couple of weeks at a time more like a consultant.

surprised that there was no mention of the half million dollars nike paid her. As an avid reader of the website but never of the forums I am disgusted what a bunch of morons comments focus on track.

if you want to comment on the gossip ask yourself what john paid 1000 dollars to have sex with susie hamilton in her used sweaty Wisconsin uniform?

A prominent coach?

TrackCoach, I appreciate what you're saying about the Slaney angle, and I agree. But one thing that I really missed, because it would have been perfectly appropriate for this type of article, is a discussion about what its like to be a teenage old "pro" in a really tough sport, where most women her age, and with fairly similar abilities, are on college teams. Does she miss the camaraderie? What really is her day to day interaction like with others in the Oregon project? I'm sure everyone is pleasant to each other, but I doubt Trenier Mosier or Shannon Rowbury regard Cain as one of their best friends. Could the burn-out that Salazar is so concerned about be hastened not just by physical issues, but also emotional ones? In looking at the three young women who have turned pro recently, it seems to me that only Ajee Wilson is even keel enough to take the pressures of this way of making a living. As a fan, the one I'm most concerned about is Alexa Efraimson, who seems as tough as they come physically, but psychologically, I don't know. Anyway, that's what I was wondering about with Cain. Obviously, time will tell!

For young females, though, I believe these 2 things can go hand in hand. I have always assumed that the explosion of performances in high school girls running are likely due to a combination of these things:

1) Progress in coaching methods for high school girls. Title 9 went into effect in 1972. It was probably only then that people began experimenting with coaching girls. Even when I was in high school circa 2000, high school girls cross country had only been popular to about 25 years, max. That is really not much time to develop techniques, and some of the methods utilized were likely not very effective. In the last 15 years it appears to me that we have made progress in coaching girls and also in what we expect from them. Coaching girls is not the same as coaching boys. When I was in high school, I remember people saying things to us like "freshmen who run fast will likely flame out as they grow". Of course we now know this is ridiculous for lots of girls, if they are trained properly. More girls than before may be training with long-term trajectory in mind. They know this is possible because they read the stories of Jordan Hasay, Nicole Blood, Emily Sisson, and countless others. All of this gained knowledge can be shared rapidly on the internet.

2) I cannot prove this, but I DO think there seems to be more of a strength-vs.-skinny attitude for high schoolers now than when I was in HS, and I also think this may be related to the internet. Girls can go online now and see that peer-level studs like Cain and Ephraimson look really strong and are running extremely fast. If they look around enough, they will see that strength is a trend among the fast girls. This can help to get past the notion that since the fastest girl in your conference looks ultra-skinny, you should be ultra-skinny too, since she is the only role model available to you. Instead you can go online now, and learn that the fastest girls in the country don't actually look like that, and adopt those as your role models instead.

Factual Correction to Rojo's post:Cain ran for Bronxville HS nearly up to the point in her junior year where she turned pro (won NY Section 1 and NY Federation championship in 2011, and Warwick Invitational in 2012 turning pro shortly thereafter). Whatever her relationship with the coaches there, she did compete for Bronxville.

Immoral Minority wrote:

Charlie Stache wrote:

ugh, really? how about (just like he said) he watched her run and was interested in coaching her?

"When Cain’s mother realized the caller truly was Salazar, she felt profound relief. The Cains are practicing Catholics, as is Salazar. Had God sent Salazar their way?"

This part of the article nauseated me as well. Why do religious people - or people who aren't religious, for that matter - constantly feel the need to express these types of things. To each his own when it comes to spirituality and/or superstition, but keep it to yourself.

+1 I agree. This is idiotic. Would the Cain family have chosen not to work with AS if he wasn't Catholic? Also, what does God have to say about doping?

Sounds like you have the makings of nice article.

4runner wrote:

Immoral Minority wrote:

This part of the article nauseated me as well. Why do religious people - or people who aren't religious, for that matter - constantly feel the need to express these types of things. To each his own when it comes to spirituality and/or superstition, but keep it to yourself.

"Nauseated???" Really???

You can't understand how the mother of an extremely talented teenage girl would feel "profound relief" when a world class coach who at least claims to prize the same ethical and belief system as you do offers to coach your daughter?

As Bill Bowerman once said, those of us that don't believe, don't have the right to stop those that do believe from expressing their opinion or faith.

Don't take it personally.

Yeah, it would be cool for some runner to rant about how Taoism made her relax and runner better and that was a key to her success...yada, etc.

Who is/was that female runner who was interviewed about her Buddhism?

That was kind of a switch...

Yer right, he's causing himself stress and damaging his own health.

I forget who and from what field first said this -- that humans accidentally -- through a virus or something, developed language and "word thinking," too soon, before they evolved out of killing their own kind and violence etc.

There is a clear recorded history that almost every civilization created gods/god to try and explain human existence in both language and phenomena... Just as we developed a "language" center (cooperating components) in our brains, so too did we develop a "spiritual" / religious center in our brains.

Either way, one thing we know for sure, is we are not in contact with either GOD or ALIENS and we are indeed living on an isolated outpost Carl Sagan once described as "The Little Blue Dot."

Enjoy The Life!

A Duck wrote:

4runner wrote:

"Nauseated???" Really???

You can't understand how the mother of an extremely talented teenage girl would feel "profound relief" when a world class coach who at least claims to prize the same ethical and belief system as you do offers to coach your daughter?

As Bill Bowerman once said, those of us that don't believe, don't have the right to stop those that do believe from expressing their opinion or faith.

Don't take it personally.

Yeah, it would be cool for some runner to rant about how Taoism made her relax and runner better and that was a key to her success...yada, etc.

Who is/was that female runner who was interviewed about her Buddhism?

That was kind of a switch...

I remember reading that Bowerman anecdote in Moore's book, great little story. What a coach.

Did you miss the part about NOP Physio, and his monitoring of treadmill runs, use of software etc? Salazar has said many times that his own over training and form did him damage -- this is likely how he has come to focus on both form and under training, rather than over training.

NOP's physical therapist is one of the best in the world for runners, and highly in demand, almost impossible to get a consultation with him.

The Tirunesh example is irrelevant, he isn't her coach, and he "didn't" get to start coaching Tirunesh at a young age. He began coaching both Rupp and Cain, in high school. And I am sure his physio teaches Salazar what to do.

They know what they are doing as well as anyone in the world, I bet. It's probably an imperfect science, and future generations will have even more data and know even more about the proper bio-mechanics of running....

Salazar was crapping all over the form of Zersenay Tadese, saying how horrible and inefficient it was. Well guess what? That guy has the highest running economy of anybody ever measured. Salazar's running form ideas are totally whack.

They are controversial records, yes, but I woudn't consider it "COMMON knowledge"

Plus, it's not a FACT, the Chinese women were doped at the time of their record breaking, the IAAF still recognizes this

The average runner looking up WR's in athletes would just see these times and accept them, you actually have to do research about these controversial records, and even then, what's generally accepted still isn't a FACT, so it's not something the whole runner community is exactly EXPECTED to know, which is what "common knowledge is"

well....... wrote:

records check wrote:

So? The statement was "common knowledge", not " common knowledge to everyone in this thread" (which was only 2 people so far I think, hardly "everyone"). Even in your smaller context, which is stronger: the findings of the IAAF or the the unfounded opinions of 2 people on an internet forum?

T&F News does not accept the Chinese 1993 marks and cites 3:52.xx as the"real" record.

Since when does T and F News have more credibility than the IAAF?

wizardstaff wrote:

totally broken wrote:

The article reads like a diligently researched piece by someone who doesn't have a clue about running.

It's a bit like Laura Hillenbrand writes.

As runners, we ought to be happy Hillenbrand even bothered to write about Zamperini's athletic career.

This.

NOP Skeptic wrote:

They are controversial records, yes, but I woudn't consider it "COMMON knowledge"

Plus, it's not a FACT, the Chinese women were doped at the time of their record breaking, the IAAF still recognizes this

The average runner looking up WR's in athletes would just see these times and accept them, you actually have to do research about these controversial records, and even then, what's generally accepted still isn't a FACT, so it's not something the whole runner community is exactly EXPECTED to know, which is what "common knowledge is"

The records controversy is discussed in the NYT article that is the subject of this thread so it ought to be common knowledge to anyone purporting to make an informed comment herein.

"Nauseated..." Really? Someone disagrees with you and that makes you violently ill?

I've met Alberto Salazar a couple of times. Alberto is not a guy who is only Catholic on Sunday morning. He tries to live his faith 24/7, and he will be the first to tell you that he, like the rest of us, doesn't always succeed. This is very important to understanding who Alberto is. I would posit that it is probably a significant part of who Mary Cain and Galen Rupp are, as well.

Likewise, the Cain's were sending their 18 year old to school (upset stomach warning: University of Portland is a Catholic school) three time zones away to work with Alberto as her coach and mentor at what amounts to a full time job. As a parent, I can tell you that you want to know what kind of environment your child is going to be in. This is similar to college coaches making home visits with the parents of the athletes they are trying to recruit. Mom and Dad need to know whether this is going to be a healthy environment for their child. Knowing that Alberto is also a practicing Catholic is a huge reassurance to the parents.