All talk about testing in Kenya. We are talking about bio passport testing. Consistent data, not disappearing once the testers show up, pretending they can't get online to update whereabouts when they all have phones. B S. A n other only earned $29k , what is the equivalent value in Kenya.
Ethiopia is worse.
If you live in abject poverty then nothing motivates you as much as the prospect of making good money.
You see American athletes can make good money via sponsorships even when they are relatively mediocre. Think Alan Webb. He used to get more sponsorship money than El Guerrouj and Lagat combined. This was when Lagat still used to run for Kenya. One might say Webb motivated Lagat to defect.
The New Zealander Nick Willis also once explained that the sponsorship and endosements he got from just medaling at the Olympics put him financially ahead of the all the African milers who routinely beat him.
So you can see why a Kenyan or Ethiopian would be doubly motivated
Clerk wrote:
Ed Hellebuyck describes that it doesn't take "the most advanced evasion methods available"
"Hellebuyck says. "All of these tests were negative, and they came after I was using EPO. You would do a cycle for about six weeks, and you inject every three days, and then it clears your system in 48 hours. So if you have a Sunday race, Thursday morning would be your last injection. Then you travel on Friday and by the time you got to the race and got tested, it's totally out of your system. This plan always worked for me. I was tested at Twin Cities. I was tested in Boston. I was tested pretty much every time I set an American masters record. The Providence 5-K, I was tested there. I'm not sure if I was tested after I won [the masters title] at the Carlsbad 5-K [in 2003], but I'd say that year I was tested a lot."
Do you recall how he got busted?
Renato Canova wrote:
I continue to see posters speaking of something they don’t know anything about.
As you have repeatedly done in the past, you immediately start off with ad hominem attacks against posters that raise legitimate topics for the discussions on this forum.
Renato Canova wrote:
For example, the idea in Kenya there are not antidoping tests.
That is not the main point that has been raised. We know 'some' amount of testing has occurred. Rather, it is the issue of whether or not it is far-and-away easier to escape doping control in Kenya, versus in the United States or Europe.
Renato Canova wrote:
I repeat my question : somebody can say EXACTLY how many blood tests there were in 2013 in US ? And, for example, how many of the numerous tests carried out with Galen Rupp were blood tests ? This, not for some suspicion about Galen, but for demonstrating that the spread “belief” that American and European are tested, while African are not tested, is only a stereotype without any real foundation of truth.
What is going on in Europe or the USA is NOT germane to this discussion, regardless of whether you, Native Son, rekrunner, etc., wish to continue to change the strawman debate to "Besides America gets away with it, so Kenya shouldn't be investigated."
When I read people comparing the situation of runners (especially African) with the situation of cyclists (always when we speak about doping there is somebody writing “never heard of Lance Armstrong ?”), it’s clear they really don’t know anything about our sport, at professional level.
One top cycling Team has a budget between 20 and 30 million of Euros (25 – 37 million of dollars).
The best cyclists have contracts for more than 2 millions Euros (2.5 millions dollars) per year (Nibali, Contador, Wiggins, Froome, Cancellara, etc…).
The budget of one of these Teams is 10 times bigger of the full budget of Athletic Kenya, and 200 times bigger than the budget of Ugandan Federation.
About the athletes, we can explain that there are no more than 20 runners in the World able earning in one year more than 100,000 USD (including the contract with technical Companies), men and women together, and this is the sector of first level. The best marathon runners can have ticket in business class, sometimes also their family (wife or husband and children) is invited and can have accommodation in the best suites in 5 stars Hotel (London, NY, Chicago, Boston, Berlin and Tokyo, not casually are called “Majors”).
But they don’t have yearly contracts such as players of soccer, football, basket, volley, hockey : they earn money if able to win. For example, Geoffrey Mutai probably earned something like 700,000 dollars in 2011 (when won Boston and NY), no more than 300,000 in 2012, when didn’t finish Boston.
About the champions on track, the situation is still worse. Thomas Longosiwa, my athletes with a PB of 12’49” in 5000m, bronze medal in Olympics and this year 2nd with 12’56” at the end of the season, earned 29,000 USD this year, running 6 times in Diamond League, 2 times 2nd , 3 times 4th and 1 time 5th).
Not sure what your point is? Is it that because there is little money for a Kenyan that can run 12'49", we are then supposed to look the other way if he happened to go down to the local market and buy some 'spiked' supplement, or got a 'booster vitamin' shot from the 'doc' down on the corner, even it means a more strict standard will be held against the same struggling up-and-comers (Christian Hesch, anyone?) in the US?
The best Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes don’t want to stay long time abroad, at sea level, fearing to lose the shape without altitude. This means they travel every time, using about 4 days out of Kenya / Ethiopia when they have some important competition. Who stay for long time abroad are weak athletes only, able to win little money in small competitions, who needs to compete 15 times in two months for putting together a maximum of 3,000 USD at the end of the season.
Besides the concern with 'getting away from altitude to long', one might possibly conclude they don't want to stay away from the micro-dosing regime, either, eh?
You understand that, with this situation, thinking that managements (or also individuals) spend good money for buying EPO or similar PED is a total idiocy.
Then why are the 'shady docs' with the stored blood bags and the 'shots' there, if the expected cut from the winnings is not going to amount to much? It's all relative.
Instead, it’s true that many athletes get some pharmacy not legal, due to their ignorance (and the ignorance of local pharmacists), when ask for some medicine for current sicknesses.
But do you think it's also true that maybe they went to get a particular shot, because their training mate got a similar shot, and started killing the workouts?
Athletes of that level are normal persons, not really professional like the top.
How do you think they got to the top, did they skip that level?
You agreed with the points of Stefan Matschiner that the hematocrit levels actually drop from the high intensity work. Yet, if there is no money for these tests, where did you get your data to claim that epo doesn't work on high-level east africans?
Sciatica Road wrote:
As you have repeatedly done in the past, you immediately start off with ad hominem attacks against posters that raise legitimate topics for the discussions on this forum.
Is it? He's pointing out that their claims are baseless. What if I claimed that Iowa was a lawless state, where beheadings took place daily in public view, and you shot back that, as I've never been there, I am speaking about things on which I have no personal knowledge, and you go on to state that because you spend more than half of every year there, you would know far better than I that Iowa isn't substantively different from any other midwest state.
Is that an ad hominem attack? All you've done is say that I'm wrong, and I'm wrong because I've been given bad information (and don't know what I'm talking about) while you've actually been there for extended periods of time and are a more reliable source of information on the topic.
But there have been Kenyan athletes testing positive - names are given in an earlier post. Additionally, Kenyan athletes have been quoted as there is a drug problem in Kenya, and Kenyan authorities are saying that they believe there is a problem, compounded unethical agents and coaches.
EPO or not - let's SOLVE the problem of too many Kenyans running fast times (and thereby degrading international interest in running).
Increase their standard of living and/or provide them with other opportunities where running is not a worthwhile pursuit.
I start from the bottom of your post.
1. Yes, hematocrit levels go down from the high intenisty work. But this is one of the reason because I don't believe in doping : WHILE HEMATOCRIT LEVELS DROP FOR HARD (AND RIGHT) TRAINING, PERFORMANCES BECOME BETTER.
I'm not interested in hematocrit levels, I'm interested in what training is able to produce AS PERFORMANCES. This means that hematocrit level IS AN EFFECT OF TRAINING, not the CAUSE of high performances. For that reason, my behavior and my belief is exactly the opposite of what all doctors involved in cycling doping think.
2. Supposing EPO can help recovery, and for that reason can give big advantages in cycling during competitions with many following stages (as Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta de Espana), in athletics we don't have this type of competitions, and there is no proof that the possibility to train hard every day can produce better results than TRAIN VERY HARD EVERY 4 or 5 days, using more modulation between specific intensity of training and recovery.
Abel Kirui, for example, won WCh in 2011 having 17 days without training distributed during the last 41 days, because it was the only way for having high specific quality training (without it he couldn't win) and, at the same time, to recover from a knee injury (running high volume of slow km couldn't allow him to solve the problem).
3. I never heard of any doctor using, in the shadow, "stored blood bags" in Kenya. I heard of some doctor trying to take advantage from a new German manager (because the journalist Seppelt introduced himself as new manager interested to open a new training camp in Kapsabet) boasting of his ability to give some athletes right doping for running faster (this, casually, in the same town where Stefan Matschiner tried to put a camp, before being kicked out of the Country after allegation by some athlete).
4. Only idiots can think that athletes born, living and training in altitude want to stay in altitude for having the opportunity to dope without any control. This means that the only advantage athletes can have in altitude is that it's difficult for the testers reaching them.... and not advantages under physiological point of view ! But many times in this Website somebody supposed ALL THE BEST RUNNERS GO ALTITUDE NOT BECAUSE THEY CAN HAVE SOME PHYSIOLOGICAL ADVANTAGE, BUT BECAUSE THEY CAN DOPE WITHOUT ANY RISK OF CONTROL. This is a position that only idiots not knowing anything about training and physiology can have.
5. A scientific doping system is very expensive, and it's ridiculous to think athletes earning between 10,000 and 30,000 USD per year can spend their money for so little income, with the possibility to waste everything because frequently they don't win. For your knowledge, for example, in Dubai Marathon 2012 Mulugueta Wendimu ran 2:07:28, position 11, and went home with a T-Shirt because there were 10 prizes only...
Too many posters don't know anything about the amount of prizes for different competitions, and think managers and coaches can have big incomes from athletic activity.
Unfortunely, this is not what happens. Athletics, also at professional level, is a "poor" discipline, particularly if you are an African runner, and only very few athletes earn money able to look at them as really "professional".
The difference is that in US or Europe athletes of 2nd international level (are ALL the athletes not in top 10 in their event) can have some different type of support (sponsors or part-time jobs or, in several Countries, their employment in some private company or statal body), in Africa nothing, and the only source of money is what they are able to win as prizes.
In Kenya, every year AK has to accept the registration of managers allowed to represent Kenyan athletes, and many of them (for example Matschiner) were not accepted by the governing body. Do you really think some manager can risk to be cut by AK as "not welcome person" for giving medium level athletes some doping, producing for the management incomes of less than 1,000 USD ?
6. When I ask how many blood tests the best american athletes had in one season is not for changing the argument of the original post, and I agree with you that this doesn't change the fact in Kenya there are not blood tests as routine. What I can't accept is that, reading what many of you write, it seems only in US there are a lot of test, with the higher level of diffusion, and US athletes have to compete, obviously clean because in US there are heavy tests, against doped athletes, because in Kenya and Ethiopia these tests don't exist.
This means that the best US runners have THE SAME TYPE OF TESTS OF KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN, and in the same amount.
Another thing about tests : athletes with a perfect biological passport are less tested by WADA, and the reason because the best African are not tested out of competition frequently is because their biological passports are without
variations of their values, so they are not considered "athletes at risk of doping". After the adoption of biological passport, WADA created a list including all the athletes having strange values, and looks at these athletes in particular way. If there are no African athletes in this list, is because their values have very little variations in different periods of the season, and this is a clear sign of "non doping behavior".
During the meeting in Palo Alto of 2 years ago, in your "perfect" Country was not possible to have any test (there was a very good 10000m) because the containers didn't arrive on time....
Renato Canova wrote:
I start from the bottom of your post.
1. Yes, hematocrit levels go down from the high intenisty work. But this is one of the reason because I don't believe in doping : WHILE HEMATOCRIT LEVELS DROP FOR HARD (AND RIGHT) TRAINING, PERFORMANCES BECOME BETTER.
You mean the performances become better AFTER the hematocrit levels recover (and even increase), due to super compensation principles. You agree? Or do you really think the distance athlete performs even better after his hematocrit is deflated due to intense training? Matschiner believes one purpose of blood doping is to assist the body in getting the hematocrit levels topped back up, and claims it is healthier for the athlete (""You go in with 45 and come out with 37. Don't tell me that's healthy. But if you substitute a little blood, you go from 45 and 43."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/matschiner-reveals-blood-doping-techniques
I'm not interested in hematocrit levels, I'm interested in what training is able to produce AS PERFORMANCES. This means that hematocrit level IS AN EFFECT OF TRAINING, not the CAUSE of high performances. For that reason, my behavior and my belief is exactly the opposite of what all doctors involved in cycling doping think.
I won't suggest your statement is disingenuous at best...but it doesn't make much sense coming from a very knowledgeable distance coach. Obviously, the effect of training on hematocrit, and the effect of training on performance, and the effect of hematocrit on performances are all interrelated.
2. Supposing EPO can help recovery, and for that reason can give big advantages in cycling during competitions with many following stages (as Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta de Espana), in athletics we don't have this type of competitions, and there is no proof that the possibility to train hard every day can produce better results than TRAIN VERY HARD EVERY 4 or 5 days, using more modulation between specific intensity of training and recovery.
Again, you can't argue against the very basic training principles of homeostasis and super compensation, and the imbalance between training load and recovery, which becomes more delicate at higher levels of training. Drugs like EPO may help in the recovery process, assisting in the removal of metabolic wastes (claimed by BALCO's Victor Conte), though most athletes try to accelerate recovery with perfectly legal means (e.g., nutritional supplementation within 30 mins of workout, napping, etc.)
3. I never heard of any doctor using, in the shadow, "stored blood bags" in Kenya.
This is the article you dance around.
http://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/hajo-seppelt-kenyan-doping-exposed/You evidently take the position it lacks credibility?
This one has Kisorio's claims:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/suspended-kenyan-says-doping-is-common-8031835.html4. Only idiots can think that athletes born, living and training in altitude want to stay in altitude for having the opportunity to dope without any control. This means that the only advantage athletes can have in altitude is that it's difficult for the testers reaching them.... and not advantages under physiological point of view ! But many times in this Website somebody supposed ALL THE BEST RUNNERS GO ALTITUDE NOT BECAUSE THEY CAN HAVE SOME PHYSIOLOGICAL ADVANTAGE, BUT BECAUSE THEY CAN DOPE WITHOUT ANY RISK OF CONTROL. This is a position that only idiots not knowing anything about training and physiology can have.
You might have a misunderstanding due to language differences. Only a small minority here think altitude training (apart from PED's) offers no advantages. However, since you brought it up, do you not agree that altitude training in a far-away place like Kenya (currently) makes it less likely to be tracked down and tested by WADA out-of-competition testing?
5. A scientific doping system is very expensive, and it's ridiculous to think athletes earning between 10,000 and 30,000 USD per year can spend their money for so little income, with the possibility to waste everything because frequently they don't win.
How scientific does it have to be? How scientific was it for guys like Fagan, or Hellebuyck?
Sciatica Road wrote:
How scientific does it have to be? How scientific was it for guys like Fagan, or Hellebuyck?
But the German journalist claimed that the abetting physicians are actually using modern medical practices, with sophisticated enough equipment, to check blood profiles before their client athletes would enter competition.
http://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/hajo-seppelt-kenyan-doping-exposed/Sciatica Road wrote:
However, since you brought it up, do you not agree that altitude training in a far-away place like Kenya (currently) makes it less likely to be tracked down and tested by WADA out-of-competition testing?
Why would it be any harder? They're not in Pyongyang.
Sciatica Road wrote:
How scientific does it have to be? How scientific was it for guys like Fagan, or Hellebuyck?
How scientific was it for them? Don't take it so many days before a competition with drug testing, but that's what the out of competition tests (which everyone on the list is subject to) and how did these two get caught?
Sciatica Road wrote:
Sciatica Road wrote:How scientific does it have to be? How scientific was it for guys like Fagan, or Hellebuyck?
But the German journalist claimed that the abetting physicians are actually using modern medical practices, with sophisticated enough equipment, to check blood profiles before their client athletes would enter competition.
http://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/hajo-seppelt-kenyan-doping-exposed/
Did you forget to change your username?
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Did you forget to change your username?
No, I wanted to reiterate that article because it, and the Kisorio article, refute the argument that poor Kenyan athletes would not have the means to take EPO or have access to 'scientific' blood doping techniques. The fact that out of the Kenya talent pool, the top guys are sure to make the podium of world majors, if anything, makes it more likely that that talent pool would be provided the means of assistance.
[quote]Jeff Wigand wrote:
Why would it be any harder? They're not in Pyongyang.
[quote]
It evidently is not harder to get PED's in Kenya, according to sources in the articles posted. And likewise, it is evidently harder to get tested for a positive in an out-of-competition test, due to "no effective anti-doping controls in Kenya", if the following article in the Sacramento Bee is credible:
Sciatica Road wrote:
No, I wanted to reiterate that article because it, and the Kisorio article, refute the argument that poor Kenyan athletes would not have the means to take EPO or have access to 'scientific' blood doping techniques. The fact that out of the Kenya talent pool, the top guys are sure to make the podium of world majors, if anything, makes it more likely that that talent pool would be provided the means of assistance.
Sure to make top 3? Speaking strictly about Kenyan men, 10 different Kenyan men placed at the six major marathons in 2013. That's 10 out of many hundreds of Kenyan men racing marathons.
Renato's point is that cycling teams have so much more money to use for PEDs and evading testing than East African distance runners. I don't think that's a point of contention.
Sciatica Road wrote:
It evidently is not harder to get PED's in Kenya, according to sources in the articles posted.
You can find PEDs all across America, too.
Sciatica Road wrote:
And likewise, it is evidently harder to get tested for a positive in an out-of-competition test, due to "no effective anti-doping controls in Kenya", if the following article in the Sacramento Bee is credible:
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/article3129812.html
Have you been able to read the report issued by the task force?
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Renato's point is that cycling teams have so much more money to use for PEDs and evading testing than East African distance runners. I don't think that's a point of contention.
BUT, he was also contending that there is not enough money in the sport, nor do Kenyan athletes have economic means to dope. If one reads the four articles I posted links to, such arguments are refuted.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/matschiner-reveals-blood-doping-techniqueshttp://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/hajo-seppelt-kenyan-doping-exposed/http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/suspended-kenyan-says-doping-is-common-8031835.htmlhttp://www.sacbee.com/sports/article3129812.htmlKisorio's testimony was particularly damaging.
Coach Canova has repeatedly deflected the German journalist allegations that came out around 2012. The recently released Government report that is discussed in the Sacramento Bee story states,
"The anti-doping task force was eventually commissioned by the government to investigate after German broadcaster ARD alleged back in 2012 that there was widespread doping among the East African nation's outstanding distance runners, saying the blood-boosting drug EPO and other prohibited substances were easily available from chemist stores in its famous high-altitude training camps.
"With Kenya under pressure from world anti-doping body WADA to fully investigate the allegations, the long-awaited report agreed with some of ARD's allegations.
"(Investigators) visited the identified shops and chemists and verified that indeed it was very easy to purchase very sophisticated performance-enhancing substances over the counter," the report said.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
You can find PEDs all across America, too.
This is a common straw man argument that the likes of Canova, native son, rekrunner, and now apologist you seem to always bring to the table when the issue of Kenya's lax doping control is brought up for discussion. The point being made has never been stated as "Kenyans cheat and Americans don't". Rather, it is that their doping control is much much more lax than that of the US, and it is ludicrous and inflammatory to claim that doesn't really matter because PED's are don't work on the top east african talent.
Sciatica Road wrote:
Kisorio's testimony was particularly damaging.
I don't agree.
"I went with it, because everyone told me I wasn't the only one – and none of the others got caught for doping," said Kisorio. It doesn't surprise me that the people selling him this stuff would say that and it wouldn't surprise if they do in fact sell it to a number of athletes. But what would surprise me is if numerous, independent groups of consistently top runners are all in some doping scheme. I don't believe there is sufficient organization or enough resources to stay at a high level and keep turning out clean tests. If top western runners are running afoul of the ABP, Kenyans will fare no better.
Sciatica Road wrote:
Rather, it is that their doping control is much much more lax than that of the US, and it is ludicrous and inflammatory to claim that doesn't really matter because PED's are don't work on the top east african talent.
I don't think you understood me. The point I was making is that the mere ease of access in obtaining a PED in a particular country is not a red flag. You pointed out that drugs were easy to access in Kenya. That means nothing to make Kenya any worse than the US, where drugs are also easy to access. You've claimed that testing is less strenuous in Kenya, but that solely rests on the (until recent times) in ability to perform out of competition blood tests in Kenya. And the counterpoint to that is the stats show out of competition blood tests are rare anywhere, so how much different is testing in Kenya than in the US or UK if the vast majority of out of competition tests don't involve blood?