Lets be honest here. Sending kids to private schools has nothing to do with education. It's so wealthy, racist parents can pay to keep their children away from black and brown people. It's the same thing with the price of country clubs. Go to any one. I guarantee 95%+ of the members are white. Make them expensive to keep minorities away.
Keep minorities away wrote:
Lets be honest here. Sending kids to private schools has nothing to do with education. It's so wealthy, racist parents can pay to keep their children away from black and brown people. It's the same thing with the price of country clubs. Go to any one. I guarantee 95%+ of the members are white. Make them expensive to keep minorities away.
Keep minorities away wrote:
Lets be honest here. Sending kids to private schools has nothing to do with education. It's so wealthy, racist parents can pay to keep their children away from black and brown people. It's the same thing with the price of country clubs. Go to any one. I guarantee 95%+ of the members are white. Make them expensive to keep minorities away.
My son's private school is actually pretty diverse, which is why we picked it (I'm brown). It's even more diverse than the public school he would otherwise be attending. Saying that only white people can afford private school is a little racist. With that, I agree that some parents send their kids to private school for the reason you stated above. Some do for the quality education without all the other distractions. Some for the religious aspects. And some so that their kids can celebrate birthdays and holidays at school, like we used to be able to do.
Flagpole wrote:
2) SOME of the private schools have extremely loyal graduates who do everything they can to hire other graduates from their school or offer internships, summer jobs, etc. When everyone and their brother graduated from Arizona State in the west or Ohio State in the midwest or Florida State in the south, it's not all that exclusive. Exclusivity sometimes has perks, and it does here often.
Ummmm, no.
This is ridiculous and is an often quoted urban legend. Business owners and hiring managers are only interested in you making them more money. They are not interested in rewarding someone for which college they went to or what fraternity they were in. No one is going to hire someone because of the college they went to if there is a better candidate. Even if two candidates are close, the best candidate will be offered, regardless of where they graduated.
Ummmm, no wrote:
Flagpole wrote:2) SOME of the private schools have extremely loyal graduates who do everything they can to hire other graduates from their school or offer internships, summer jobs, etc. When everyone and their brother graduated from Arizona State in the west or Ohio State in the midwest or Florida State in the south, it's not all that exclusive. Exclusivity sometimes has perks, and it does here often.
Ummmm, no.
This is ridiculous and is an often quoted urban legend. Business owners and hiring managers are only interested in you making them more money. They are not interested in rewarding someone for which college they went to or what fraternity they were in. No one is going to hire someone because of the college they went to if there is a better candidate. Even if two candidates are close, the best candidate will be offered, regardless of where they graduated.
1) I didn't say anything about fraternities.
2) You are mistaken about the rest of it. Hiring managers who went to certain colleges DO call in like others for interviews, they DO work closely with the college's placement department, and they DO hire fellow graduates all things being equal (and sometimes not even equal). This is ESPECIALLY true for many elite small private colleges on the East Coast.
Flagpole - I usually agree with you (especially in finances), but you are mostly wrong in this case. I've been in the various levels of HR for 25 years at several companies so I have a lot and varied experience in this.
Hiring Managers do work with local college placement offices to find entry-level candidates. It doesn't make sense to go outside the local area to find candidates since graduates are more likely to stay in the area to work. For example, I do have a good relationship with my alma mater's placement department. However, I now live 700 miles away. It doesn't make any sense to try and recruit from my alma mater since it is very difficult (and expensive) to uproot candidates. It did make sense when I was only 150 miles away, but not now. Recruiting is more of a function of locality than a matching alma mater. We also tend to recruit from colleges where in the past we have found successful candidates or have solid programs which match our business.
As one looks at filling positions up the org chart, one's alma mater has very little to do with finding a candidate and the majority of emphasis is placed on prior work experience.
Hope this helps.
Jacob Dawson wrote:
Flagpole - I usually agree with you (especially in finances), but you are mostly wrong in this case. I've been in the various levels of HR for 25 years at several companies so I have a lot and varied experience in this.
Hiring Managers do work with local college placement offices to find entry-level candidates. It doesn't make sense to go outside the local area to find candidates since graduates are more likely to stay in the area to work. For example, I do have a good relationship with my alma mater's placement department. However, I now live 700 miles away. It doesn't make any sense to try and recruit from my alma mater since it is very difficult (and expensive) to uproot candidates. It did make sense when I was only 150 miles away, but not now. Recruiting is more of a function of locality than a matching alma mater. We also tend to recruit from colleges where in the past we have found successful candidates or have solid programs which match our business.
As one looks at filling positions up the org chart, one's alma mater has very little to do with finding a candidate and the majority of emphasis is placed on prior work experience.
Hope this helps.
I think the two of you are misunderstanding the importance I am placing on this. It's not that they all LOOK ONLY for graduates from their own college (though I know there ARE hiring managers who do that...we even saw this in print in a book in the placement office at one elite college that we visited over the summer).
1) All things have to be equal and appropriate. Obviously if looking for someone to write for a sitcom, you aren't going to select a dude with a degree in math from your alma mater.
2) Here in Ohio, Ohio State students are ubiquitous, and there are lots of levels of students that come out of that BIG state university...a graduate from there isn't necessarily special. BUT, go to New Jersey and a Princeton graduate's resume crosses your desk, if you are a Princeton graduate, you ARE going to take a closer look at that resume than an Ohio State graduate would take a look at an Ohio State grad's resume...if for no other reason (and there ARE other reasons) that Princeton graduates are more rare.
3) I function as a hiring manager for some companies that I consult for (for some, just the initial weeder outer), and quality of school is definitely a factor when I look at resumes. All things being equal, I would take a Princeton graduate over a Michigan State graduate, and I didn't GO to Princeton. Have I recommended candidates who went to a large state school? Yes. But only when they were clearly better than everyone else who applied.
4) And yes, location is a factor. Is often more difficult to try to recruit from your alma mater if you live far away from it (most students from any college end up working and living close to that college). IF though you live 700 or even 2000 miles away from your alma mater and a resume comes across your desk from a graduate or even soon-to-be graduate who wants to move to your city, IF your college was an elite college that you respect, you will take a careful look.
This is exactly what is wrong with our country and why we are becoming the most hated country in the world. I make a tad over 200k on a HS education and I live off of no more then 65k I have a tiny condo in a great neighborhood and 2 kids.
Flagpole - Im sorry, you are just wrong. We look for the best candidate, regardless of the college or university the hiring manager/candidate attended.
I won't go through your response point-by-point to demonstrate where you are wrong since I do like you and your posts generally.
Jacob Dawson wrote:
Flagpole - Im sorry, you are just wrong. We look for the best candidate, regardless of the college or university the hiring manager/candidate attended.
I won't go through your response point-by-point to demonstrate where you are wrong since I do like you and your posts generally.
I think you are confusing what YOU do with with SOME OTHERS do. There is a definite OVERALL advantage to having graduated from one of the top elite colleges in the country.
Flagpole - I'm not confusing what I do, it is what WE do as an industry. I've worked in this area for 25 years. I've worked for large companies (two Fortune 500s) with large hiring departments and I've worked in small companies and worked in different parts of the country. I know what I'm talking about.
Of course, coming out of college there is an advantage to going to an elite university. However, that is the case regardless of the alma mater of the hiring manager.
There are plenty of good public schools in New York City. Middle-class parents prefer to bear the cost of moving to a better school district, or to the suburbs, over the cost of sending them to private school. There's a good school district 3 blocks south of where I live.
Top ranked school in NYC
Leadership Preparatory Ocean Hill Charter School 0.998
Quogue Union Free School District 0.996
Harlem Success Academy Charter School 0.995
Bronx Success Academy Charter School 1
Yeah, I sympathize to some extent. My wife, two young kids and I live in a high CoL area (east coast big city) and make approximately $225k/yr (combined), depending on my wife's bonus. I wouldn't say we're actually "living tight", but right now, while both of our kids require full time child care, my take home (after maxing out my 401k, paying health and life ins premiums, pension contribution, etc.) is actually less than a month of full time day care costs (about $3400 in our area -- $1700 per kid). My wife's take home (after maxing out 401k, etc.) covers all of our other expenses (mortgage, car payment, groceries, basic entertainment, etc.) and we also save $500/mo for college and invest another $250/mo or so in mutual funds. That's it though -- we have nothing left over after those "designated" items. Not that I'm complaining -- I know we have it pretty damn good, particularly for someone relatively young (we're both in our early 30s) -- but we'd definitely have to live differently if we made $45k less like the OP.
Bunch of rich b******* on LR.
Jacob Dawson wrote:
Flagpole - I'm not confusing what I do, it is what WE do as an industry. I've worked in this area for 25 years. I've worked for large companies (two Fortune 500s) with large hiring departments and I've worked in small companies and worked in different parts of the country. I know what I'm talking about.
Of course, coming out of college there is an advantage to going to an elite university. However, that is the case regardless of the alma mater of the hiring manager.
Well, I am accepting that there are those like you who do not consider which college applicants went to. For some reason, you are not accepting the fact that there are those who DO consider it, and consider it greatly. There are several elite colleges on the East Coast that have a reputation for having very loyal graduates who provide opportunity for other graduates whenever possible. I happen to BE one of those people (hiring manager who does that) as I believe that by and large, graduates of elite colleges tend to be smarter and more capable than graduates of lesser schools, so if a candidate is a graduate of an elite college (and performed well there), an applicant from Big State University is going to have to have a glaring specific reason for me to pick him or her over the other applicant. One of the companies I consult for that uses my services as an applicant screener is one of the largest software companies in the world. I routinely recommend applicants from better colleges, all things being equal. Have to be a better student generally to get into a top college, and then typically more is expected of you than at other lower-tier colleges (though there are exceptions, and I take those exceptions into account), and you are surrounded by smarter students and therefore are more challenged on a daily basis for 4 years compared to students from Big State University. I, like you, look for the best candidate, and more often than not, they come from a great college. Sometimes a group of resumes doesn't include a student from an elite college...usually because they all already have jobs or are in graduate school.
Jacob Dawson wrote:
Of course, coming out of college there is an advantage to going to an elite university. However, that is the case regardless of the alma mater of the hiring manager.
This is true, BUT the alma mater of the hiring manager DOES come into play also...especially IF that manager comes from an elite college. In one elite college that I won't name that we looked at for my daughter, they showed us the Network information in the Career Placement office, and it was amazing, and they pride themselves on it. My college has nothing like that.
greenstone wrote:
If you're making $180k and you're not sure if you can drop $100 on shoes, you're doing something wrong. That's different than saying you shouldn't be living within a budget. Wife and I make just under $200k and I manage our life/money so little crap, I'm talking about stuff under $500 is of no concern. I want a new phone? Done. I want a new jacket? Done. I want a really nice vacation? Now let's decide if we can afford it. I just don't want the day to day stress of money. Bigger picture stuff like retirement, the college fund, that's just part of life. Calculators say we could afford a house 3 times what ours is worth, forget it. I'll stick with my 15 year mortgage and have it paid off by age 45. And I'll also continue to drive my 8 year old car with 167k miles on it because there's nothing wrong with it.
I don't usually comment on such threads (about money and income) but I agree with you on this;
==
If you're making $180k and you're not sure if you can drop $100 on shoes, you're doing something wrong. That's different than saying you shouldn't be living within a budget. Wife and I make just under $200k and I manage our life/money so little crap, I'm talking about stuff under $500 is of no concern. I want a new phone? Done.
==
Most of my friends (Kenyans of course) don't make anywhere near $180k but they do reasonably well.
I am trying to figure out how an income(combined or not) of $180k (I am talking about the US) can make someone really debate (with himself) as to whether he can afford a $100 pair of shoe or teh new Samsung galaxy note 4- ($700 -$800).
I really don't understand.
NativeSon wrote:
greenstone wrote:If you're making $180k and you're not sure if you can drop $100 on shoes, you're doing something wrong. That's different than saying you shouldn't be living within a budget. Wife and I make just under $200k and I manage our life/money so little crap, I'm talking about stuff under $500 is of no concern. I want a new phone? Done. I want a new jacket? Done. I want a really nice vacation? Now let's decide if we can afford it. I just don't want the day to day stress of money. Bigger picture stuff like retirement, the college fund, that's just part of life. Calculators say we could afford a house 3 times what ours is worth, forget it. I'll stick with my 15 year mortgage and have it paid off by age 45. And I'll also continue to drive my 8 year old car with 167k miles on it because there's nothing wrong with it.
I don't usually comment on such threads (about money and income) but I agree with you on this;
==
If you're making $180k and you're not sure if you can drop $100 on shoes, you're doing something wrong. That's different than saying you shouldn't be living within a budget. Wife and I make just under $200k and I manage our life/money so little crap, I'm talking about stuff under $500 is of no concern. I want a new phone? Done.
==
Most of my friends (Kenyans of course) don't make anywhere near $180k but they do reasonably well.
I am trying to figure out how an income(combined or not) of $180k (I am talking about the US) can make someone really debate (with himself) as to whether he can afford a $100 pair of shoe or teh new Samsung galaxy note 4- ($700 -$800).
I really don't understand.
Just depends where you live. All it takes is a hefty mortgage payment, and then you really need to count your pennies.
Flagpole wrote:
Jacob Dawson wrote:Flagpole - I'm not confusing what I do, it is what WE do as an industry. I've worked in this area for 25 years. I've worked for large companies (two Fortune 500s) with large hiring departments and I've worked in small companies and worked in different parts of the country. I know what I'm talking about.
Of course, coming out of college there is an advantage to going to an elite university. However, that is the case regardless of the alma mater of the hiring manager.
Well, I am accepting that there are those like you who do not consider which college applicants went to. For some reason, you are not accepting the fact that there are those who DO consider it, and consider it greatly. There are several elite colleges on the East Coast that have a reputation for having very loyal graduates who provide opportunity for other graduates whenever possible. I happen to BE one of those people (hiring manager who does that) as I believe that by and large, graduates of elite colleges tend to be smarter and more capable than graduates of lesser schools, so if a candidate is a graduate of an elite college (and performed well there), an applicant from Big State University is going to have to have a glaring specific reason for me to pick him or her over the other applicant. One of the companies I consult for that uses my services as an applicant screener is one of the largest software companies in the world. I routinely recommend applicants from better colleges, all things being equal. Have to be a better student generally to get into a top college, and then typically more is expected of you than at other lower-tier colleges (though there are exceptions, and I take those exceptions into account), and you are surrounded by smarter students and therefore are more challenged on a daily basis for 4 years compared to students from Big State University. I, like you, look for the best candidate, and more often than not, they come from a great college. Sometimes a group of resumes doesn't include a student from an elite college...usually because they all already have jobs or are in graduate school.
This is true, BUT the alma mater of the hiring manager DOES come into play also...especially IF that manager comes from an elite college. In one elite college that I won't name that we looked at for my daughter, they showed us the Network information in the Career Placement office, and it was amazing, and they pride themselves on it. My college has nothing like that.
Sigh.
Why do you keep moving the goal posts, Flagpole?
1) "Well, I am accepting that there are those like you who do not consider which college applicants went to. "
Where did I state this? Actually, I stated the opposite - "Of course, coming out of college there is an advantage to going to an elite university."
2) You have gone from saying that hiring managers care a great deal if a candidate has gone to the same university as the hiring manager to saying that hiring managers look at candidates from elite colleges differently than they do at candidates from less elite colleges. Make up your mind. Which is it? The former is totally false, btw. As I stated previously, the latter is true; however, much more so with candidates right out of college. Once a candidate has demonstrated professional experience, the alma mater's importance diminishes greatly.
3) "...the alma mater of the hiring manager DOES come into play also...especially IF that manager comes from an elite college. In one elite college that I won't name that we looked at for my daughter, they showed us the Network information in the Career Placement office, and it was amazing, and they pride themselves on it. My college has nothing like that."
Sigh, again. So your basing this on your one experience with an elite college. The college was trying to recruit your daughter to go there. Of course, they are going to provide a list of alumni in either hiring positions or provide you with a list of very successful alumni. It is a recruiting tactic. I would think that you would be smart enough to realize that. "Hey, we want your daughter to come here. Look at all the things we have in place to make her successful while she is here and also after she graduates." Not rocket science.
And, yes, all colleges and universities with career placement or planning offices do this. It is not exclusive to elite East Coast colleges. I'd love to hear which college you went to that does not have a career planning/placement department.
My colleagues and I are listed with probably a dozen colleges and university career planning department's literature. Why? Because we have a history of hiring recent graduates from those places. It is certainly not because, as a hiring manager, I'm an alum. It's a symbiotic relationship. They want to list us to demonstrate that they can get graduates jobs and we have had a good track record of candidates from them. We want their graduates and they want to use us as a recruiting tool or to help increase the % of graduates who get a job.
I find it very hard to believe that you are in a screener position and don't know the basics of hiring departments.
You need to have a part-time job to be able to provide for the family. I tried to get 2 jobs, but it was difficult to combine them. I also tried sports betting and casino. The soul is more the latter. Start from https://mr.bet/casino/type/slot. If you play with the mind, it turned out to get almost 1.5 of their wages, but usually it's a little more than 70%. Thus, having about one and a half salaries, my family was able to finally finish the repair and start saving money.