Dkny64 wrote:
I think that kind of 800m would give Salazar [and Cain] more insight into where her race fitness stands than would a 1500m in which she's off the back of the lead pack before the real racing begins.
Ok, you are, of course, still free to think I'm a moron, but there you have my point of view.
An 800 will give more insight into 1500 fitness than a 1500?
Yes, that is moronic.
Bubbalooey wrote:
She can run Prefonraine or Senior Worlds/Olympics , etc. for the next 10 years or more
Keep dreaming.
What female athlete has Salazar successfully coached for over ten years?
I defy you to name ONE.
Hopefully she is still walking in ten years.
Not Cool Bro wrote:
http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2014/05/will_mary_cain_run_the_1500_at.html#incart_riverAlberto Salazar might pull her out of the 1500 and put her in the 8000 instead because "he is reassessing the advisability of putting Cain in a race along side" Abeba Aregawi and Jenny Simpson.
God forbid we run a race with fast people in it when we're not in peak shape! We could lose!!!
Maybe he's worried she'd get in over head trying to race them and get sniped by Elise Cranny in the last 100?
Either way, pretty lame. I don't blame Cain, this is typical Salazar stuff and she's not going to go against her coach (at least not at this age). There's only so many blows to his ego he can take and Rupp just got smoked by Collis Birmingham so he's got to be careful for a while.
What did Bob Kennedy beat into Salazar's brain?
"Bring them along slowly."
Judge or asses the season at the end of the season, not by this immature nonsense take.
Dkny64 wrote:
Ok, you are, of course, still free to think I'm a moron, but there you have my point of view.
And at what time will Cain become responsible for what her coach does on her behalf?
Btw, I still think you're a moron.
rcs wrote:
Dkny64 wrote:I think that kind of 800m would give Salazar [and Cain] more insight into where her race fitness stands than would a 1500m in which she's off the back of the lead pack before the real racing begins.
Ok, you are, of course, still free to think I'm a moron, but there you have my point of view.
An 800 will give more insight into 1500 fitness than a 1500?
Yes, that is moronic.
Is that you, Rupp-Certified Saladbar? If so, I say go back to the full form of your screen name - it remains my favorite letsrun handle.
The 800m is a very simple event for Mary Cain. Go out in 59.xx, come back as best she can. Doesn't really matter what the rest of the field does so the result gives a clear indication of Cain's conditioning and gets her back to running under race conditions, something she hasn't done in quite a while.
The 1500m is more complicated and the result can be significantly influenced by the other runners and by psychological factors that make the result tougher to read than the result of an 800m. Suppose, for example, Can chases an early pace of 48-65 then blows up badly and finished in 4:10. All we've learned is that she isn't ready to run that hot a pace, but we haven't really learned how fit she actually is. Or suppose she goes out 49-68, is completely out of contact with the lead, gets discouraged and runs a mediocre 3rd lap of 69, then closes in 62 for something like 4:08. Again, all we've really learned is that she isn't currently competitive with best in the world but we haven't learned much about her actual fitness level.
There are all kinds of things not to like about Salazar but this situation arose because Mary Cain decided to make other things in her life a higher priority than getting started on her outdoor racing season. [If it had been up to AlSal she would have opened her season at Oxy if not earlier.]
Anyway, I hope she runs one of the races and that it goes well for her. I also hope Cranny hits a big PR in the 1500m. And I hope Efraimson does well with whatever she decides to make her next priority. I think it's fair to say that this is the first time the US has ever had 3 HS mid-d / distance girls of this caliber and Ajee is only a couple of years older and seems to be extending her range - exciting times.
when cain realizes that your coach telling you to drink stuff and not telling you what's in it isn't normal she'll leave NOP and head back to the land of reality with Efraimson and Cranny.
Dkny64 wrote:
The 1500m is more complicated and the result can be significantly influenced by the other runners and by psychological factors that make the result tougher to read than the result of an 800m. Suppose, for example, Can chases an early pace of 48-65 then blows up badly and finished in 4:10. All we've learned is that she isn't ready to run that hot a pace, but we haven't really learned how fit she actually is. Or suppose she goes out 49-68, is completely out of contact with the lead, gets discouraged and runs a mediocre 3rd lap of 69, then closes in 62 for something like 4:08. Again, all we've really learned is that she isn't currently competitive with best in the world but we haven't learned much about her actual fitness level.
I don't understand why everyone is just focusing on the potential downside with Cain in running the 1500. Yes, either of your scenarios is possible, but what about the possibility of her running 4:02 or 4:03 and showing she really is closer to competing with the best in the world than everyone assumes. If she beat Martinez, for example, it would be very significant.
She has exceeded expectations spectacularly in her short career. Maybe she will have a bad performance - how many time has Manzano laid an egg in his career. All runners have good and bad races. She will also learn a lot by being in a WC final caliber field about where she stands right now and how to gauge her progress.
Obviously, we have to trust her coach in the matter, but I think we should all quite worrying about how a bad race might be a big blow to her self-confidence.
Dkny64 wrote:
The 800m is a very simple event for Mary Cain. Go out in 59.xx, come back as best she can. Doesn't really matter what the rest of the field does so the result gives a clear indication of Cain's conditioning and gets her back to running under race conditions, something she hasn't done in quite a while.
The 1500m is more complicated and the result can be significantly influenced by the other runners and by psychological factors that make the result tougher to read than the result of an 800m. Suppose, for example, Can chases an early pace of 48-65 then blows up badly and finished in 4:10. All we've learned is that she isn't ready to run that hot a pace, but we haven't really learned how fit she actually is. Or suppose she goes out 49-68, is completely out of contact with the lead, gets discouraged and runs a mediocre 3rd lap of 69, then closes in 62 for something like 4:08. Again, all we've really learned is that she isn't currently competitive with best in the world but we haven't learned much about her actual fitness level.
There are all kinds of things not to like about Salazar but this situation arose because Mary Cain decided to make other things in her life a higher priority than getting started on her outdoor racing season. [If it had been up to AlSal she would have opened her season at Oxy if not earlier.]
Anyway, I hope she runs one of the races and that it goes well for her. I also hope Cranny hits a big PR in the 1500m. And I hope Efraimson does well with whatever she decides to make her next priority. I think it's fair to say that this is the first time the US has ever had 3 HS mid-d / distance girls of this caliber and Ajee is only a couple of years older and seems to be extending her range - exciting times.
This is indeed moronic. An 800 is no more or less indicative than a 1500m. All of those factors that you listed for the 1500m are in the 800m too. This is the same as the dumb Salazar excuse last year - Farah is too sick to run a 10k but a 5k is ok. Moronic.
rsa wrote:
Dkny64 wrote:The 1500m is more complicated and the result can be significantly influenced by the other runners and by psychological factors that make the result tougher to read than the result of an 800m. Suppose, for example, Can chases an early pace of 48-65 then blows up badly and finished in 4:10. All we've learned is that she isn't ready to run that hot a pace, but we haven't really learned how fit she actually is. Or suppose she goes out 49-68, is completely out of contact with the lead, gets discouraged and runs a mediocre 3rd lap of 69, then closes in 62 for something like 4:08. Again, all we've really learned is that she isn't currently competitive with best in the world but we haven't learned much about her actual fitness level.
I don't understand why everyone is just focusing on the potential downside with Cain in running the 1500. Yes, either of your scenarios is possible, but what about the possibility of her running 4:02 or 4:03 and showing she really is closer to competing with the best in the world than everyone assumes. If she beat Martinez, for example, it would be very significant.
She has exceeded expectations spectacularly in her short career. Maybe she will have a bad performance - how many time has Manzano laid an egg in his career. All runners have good and bad races. She will also learn a lot by being in a WC final caliber field about where she stands right now and how to gauge her progress.
Obviously, we have to trust her coach in the matter, but I think we should all quite worrying about how a bad race might be a big blow to her self-confidence.
Salazar knows how her workouts have been going, we don't. If he thinks her workouts show she has a shot at running a 1500m PR - not a guarantee, a shot - I think he'll send her out there; if they don't, I think he'll have her run the 800m as a low-stakes rust buster.
Anyway, we'll all find out soon enough.
p.s. To those of you who say that if Cain doesn't run the 1500m, she's ducking the competition - do you-all think that at this stage in her development, Cain is competitive with Aregawi, Obiri, Kipyegon and Simpson?
Not Cool Bro wrote:
Maybe he's worried she'd get in over head trying to race them and get sniped by Elise Cranny in the last 100?
Either way, pretty lame. I don't blame Cain, this is typical Salazar stuff and she's not going to go against her coach (at least not at this age). There's only so many blows to his ego he can take and Rupp just got smoked by Collis Birmingham so he's got to be careful for a while.
Great post. I hope Cranny runs the 1500, beats Cain's pb and gets the HS record.
Do people not finally understand how bad Salazar is for the sport. What is good for the sport is a concept that is foreign to him. Maniuplating races for his athletes is all he cares about.
Rupp may run the 10k, but we won't know until 5 minutes before it starts because of pollen. Imagine if fans for the NBA woudn't be told if Leboron was playing until right before tipoff.
I think that people underestimate the power of mental confidence. You don't want to put your athlete in a position where they will be crushed by the opponents that you expect them to compete with in the near future when the athlete is in top form. Yes, the best in the world duck the competition all the time. This is to preserve their mental edge so that they can go for the win when they are ready. Nobody likes to toe the line against a competitor that crushed you by 10 seconds in a 1500 earlier in the season.
LennyZ wrote:
I think that people underestimate the power of mental confidence. You don't want to put your athlete in a position where they will be crushed by the opponents that you expect them to compete with in the near future when the athlete is in top form. Yes, the best in the world duck the competition all the time. This is to preserve their mental edge so that they can go for the win when they are ready. Nobody likes to toe the line against a competitor that crushed you by 10 seconds in a 1500 earlier in the season.
Exactly. That is the definition of 'weak sauce'.