Just so I understand what people are talking about here, where would you say 'grey area' starts and finishes? Or is that just an obviously stupid question?
Just so I understand what people are talking about here, where would you say 'grey area' starts and finishes? Or is that just an obviously stupid question?
A bit of background to Mo. He dominated the Uk junior distance running scene from the age of 14. And he did this off fairly limited training. He trained from the age of 15/16 with an awesomely talented group at Hounslow with the likes of Sam Haughian and Ben Whitby. He ran a couple of quality sessions a week but he was not doing a big volume of aerobic work. So to compare his times to Kenyan runners in their late teens is meaningless.
He rarely chased quick times in his teens but was clearly a class above his peers. He routinely won English schools/National xc events by close to a 1min at u17 level, against other boys who were probably running a lot more milage. His speed was clearly evident by a 1.48.8 800 (front ran) at the age of 18 and I witnessed a 49. relay split in the same year.
It looked at one stage that Mo was not going to develop his obvious talent and he stagnated for a couple of yrs in his early 20s. It was then that he started training with Alan Storey, which helped him progress to world class. A couple of years of proper aerobic development, saw him running low 13mins for 5km and I think a 12th in the world cross in 2008.
What I think Salazar has added is a more comprehensive controlled programme, additional cross training, a proper strength and conditioning programme and a couple of world class training partners (rather than sometimes having some Kenyans to train with and sometimes not).
When you know Mo's background properly and consider all the facts, it is no suprise that he is now the best in the world.
Regardless of times Mo was a phenom as a youth athlete and was always reputed not to be a heavy trainer. I watched him win the English Schools cross country race in Nottingham where he was so far ahead of the field that he was literally jumping up to touch the low-lying branches of the trees on the course. It was that easy for him and this is in a highly competetive race which the likes of Cram or Coe did not win. It was pretty clear that Farah, Chris Thompson and a guy called Lee McCash (who didn't continue to senior level) were a class above in their respective age groups.
I wouldn't have predicted a 3:28 I concede but if you had told any informed observers watching when he was a kid that he would go sub 13 nobody would have been at all surprised. If anything the surprise was that it took him so long to get there when he was dedicating himself full time to athletics.
rrrrubbish wrote:
You don't 'learn to finish fast' you are either fast or you are not, hence the reason we have 100 meters runners. You don't go from being the guy who was outkicked in every race to being the best kicker in the world.... or if it happens show me another example?
He wan't hungry to be the best in the world when he had a world class coach, lived with the world record holder for 10k on the road and trained with him? Was Micah Kogo not setting a good enough example?
Get real, I've seen Mo outkicked in a 3.45 1500 by a 3.41 guy less than 4 years ago.
Sorry but you are just plain wrong. He most certainly did learn to finish fast against the best in the world at 5000 and 10000.
Salazar works total body strength which is evident that no other Africans train. Whose to say this type of specific weight training, coupled with a big focus on speedwork isn't the reason why Mo went from top 10 in the world to number 1? You.[/quote]
Weight training has been common for a very long time... There are plenty of videos on u-tube of Geb et al in the weight room or doing drills. I was doing much of that stuff in high school 15 years ago (and I and my team were nowhere near elite). Are you suggesting that if you clam shell like this instead of like that, jump on a box this way instead of that way, toss a ball in this direction instead of over there ... That you'll drop incredible alounts of time at all distances?
I think the more likely scenario is that AlSal and his team of MDs have tweaked his hormone levels (through TUEs etc) so that he can handle more training. In interviews, eg the one right after Monaco, Mo has mentioned overtraining in years prior to AlSal/when he was doing the kenyan intensives (and overtraining is usually b/c of hormonal imbalances and an overtaxed nervous system). I think the medical team has contributed more to the improvement than any subtle change in training.
ventolin^3 wrote:people do need to put just a little thought into this
mo has got this good at 1500 because he has worked hard on his strength & found great speed for a 5k/10k guy - only chebbii i woud say had better ( & before anyone blurts out geb/kennster, remember they were 5'4 runts - those little legs whirring away on last laps looked impressive but they aren't going to beat any decent 1500 guy in a 400 - 5'4 is still 5'4 & that is going to severely limit your 400 speed )
mo was so puny when he joined sal that the 1st thing sal asked him to do was some push-ups
mo collapsed after 5 !!!
sal said his biggest job was to get him to hit the weights & pile some strength into those bones
that is the be-all & end-all of the story
i have absolutely no doubt mo wouda progressed to well below 27 if he'd stuck with another coach
( he also said he wasn't a fully dedicated guy until joining sal ) & i think he couda gone 26'30/26'40 as career end
( same as a dozen+ other current/recent africans you coud name given "perfect" pace & ambitious pace - no rubbish 13'25 aim at 1/2 way, but something like 13'15 or 13'20 - go see 3rd string rotich run 26'43 in '11 off rubbish pre-race aim/actual of 13'25 - he was 26'30/26'35 that day if kennster had had the balls to ask for 13'15+ & not 13'25 )
however, with that 26'30/26'40 his speed wouda stayed at same pretty pathetic level of maybe 52 or 53s like most africans ( remember 5 push-ups -> no strength, no speed ) & his line of fit wouda been likely
52.0 - 53.0 / 26'30 - 26'40 ->
3'32.9 - 3'35.7
7'24.5 - 7'29.2
12'43.8 - 12'50.4
i defy anyone to say that 1500 range is outrageous for him as a career pb if he'd stuck to his
"all mileage/no strength" training
the hard strength work under sal has meant that basically, he probably hasn't got any significantly quicker than the 26'30 or 26'40 he'd likely have ended up with anyways just thru dedicated training instead of haphazard ( like the above mentioned dozen+ africans ), BUT his speed is no longer the 52 or 53 he wouda had, but
~ 50-flat !
50.0 / 26'30 - 26'40 ->
3'28.5 - 3'29.1
7'18.9- 7'20.8
12'38.4 - 12'42.4
all mo has done is find speed - nothing monstrous to do with gargantuan endurance
the same speed i have been asking canova to find for years for his africans - get them a weights coach & get them into that weights room - that'll do it !!!
maybe canova & the other african coaches will finally learn from mo
speed kills !
cram confirms that weights -> speed has been the key to mo's success :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23435799Mo has developed his speed...
He always had a good finish, but over the last three or four years he has worked on his technique, which isn't something distance runners normally do, and he's a better runner for it.
Mo spends a lot of time in the gym working on his strength, and it is the power he has gained which has helped his speed. Add the endurance he already had to the improved technique and strength and it all augurs well
Show me another example of someone who was always outkicked who is now the best kicker in their event.
Observationalist wrote:
BedfordScouse wrote:What age is a junior at High School? Mo ran 8:47 aged 14, are you saying Ritz was quicker than that at the same age?
According to Wickipedia a Junior is 16/17. At 16 Mo (aged 15 at start of the school year) ran 8:16.
So what times did Ritz run, at what age? School year is irrelevant.
First of all, never say "According to Wikipedia..." I am Wikipedia; you are Wikipedia. Just do the research yourself, or at the very least, find out where Wikipedia got the information from in the sources cited.
AGE 14/15
@ 15 Ritz ran 9:30 for 3200
@ 14 Mo ran 8:47 for 3000
Fairly even. Mo doesn't have any records with UK Athletics for 1998 and I'm not aware of data for a year 8 Ritz.
AGE 16
Ritz ran 4:14 for 1600 & 8:58 for 3200
Mo ran 4:12 for mile & 8:16 for 3000
Advantage Mo
AGE 17
Ritz ran ran 8:41 for 3200
Mo ran 8:12 for 3000m
Advantage Ritz
Does this suffice?
Ritz was running 80, 90, 100 mile weeks at this point?
I'd be shocked if Mo was even running 30.
Galen Rupp.
he's going back to 'high altitude' at st moritz again
to 'prepare' for moscow
i wonder if ferrari still workin' there
It's funny how American-based runners can practice sprinting and lift weights to become world beaters but the rest of the world need drugs.
Trafalgar wrote:
When you know Mo's background properly and consider all the facts, it is no suprise that he is now the best in the world.
Yes, it is! Mo has never been good on the world scene until just recently. UK and European distance running is not the world. There are juniors that dominate WORLD junior distance running and most (if not all) will never accomplish what Mo has in the last 3 years.
If you think that winning English national xc titles alone means that a runner will one day win double gold at the Olympics and run 3:28 in the 1500 well...
run like a sprinter. wrote:
It's funny how American-based runners can practice sprinting and lift weights to become world beaters but the rest of the world needs drugs.
60% of the time running distance like a sprinter works every time. Wait, that doesn't make sense.
Mo Farah's physiology changed in a very short time:
1) redevelopment/conversion of fast-twitch fibers -- the idea that anyone at Mo's age can convert/develop the fast twitch needed to sustain his closing speeds mid 2011 and beyond is somewhat unbelievable.
2) massive increase of anaerobic capacity, to the point where his augmented metabolic threshold now allows his muscles to work harder off less than anyone else at the end of a sustained effort.
I didn't take the time to get closing splits on Kiprop and Farah, but it appeared that Mo closed a bit over the last 150m. Anyone do this yet?
crammy knows well what's goin on here..
the idea that mo is gonna go faster than cram and the rest clean is silly
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_1500ok.htm
he's right in there with all the famous 326-328 doppers
That list reads like a whose who of doping.
ya
it's either mo farah or kiprop clean WR
ridiculous
Obviously nobody thinks that winning English national XC titles means that a runner will win double gold at the Olympics or run 3:28. All people are saying is that his performances as a junior probably did not fully reflect what he could have achieved. Arguably if he had been running 100 miles a week as a 17 year old it could have had an adverse impact on his long term development.
That does not mean he is clean but it also does not make it invalid to ask questions about his improvements relatively late into his sporting career
The Stain wrote:
Name another athlete who dominated their event for ANY period who didn't dominate pretty much right out of the gate. All the legends of distance running - Geb, Tergat, Bekele, El Gherrouj, Coe, Ovett, Juantorena, Morceli, etc - we don't remember their years of toiling away in relative mediocrity on the international circuit, because they DIDN'T HAVE ANY! They maybe had a first season where people remarked "this guy's going to be good", and then after that, they dominated. There is no precedent of people who had 6 or 8 years of being pretty good, and then becoming the best.
Not quite the world's best, but Galen Rupp became by far the best distance runner America has ever seen after not being able to win a college conference title the first four years of college.
he fixed the fern wrote:
Not quite the world's best, but Galen Rupp became by far the best distance runner America has ever seen after not being able to win a college conference title the first four years of college.
Billy Mills came through halfway in Tokyo just a few seconds off his 5k pr. People get better.
Barry Bonds became great towards the end of his career.