Getting real tired of these 13:0X races with 53-54 second last laps

The Waterboy · 2013-07-05T12:22:41-04:00

We need to see some sub 12:50's again. It is ridiculous that we aren't. These diamond league fields are world class and there is absolutely NO reason why they aren't running fast. Oh, your pacemaker only made it to 3000m? Suck it up and do some pacemaking yourself. These people should be more than capable of picking up the pace themselves to at least make it sub 13. Bekele/Geb ran sub 13 in the second half of a 10000m by themselves, Menjo ran sub 27 in 10000m solo etc. Why can't these people do it? One of the things that interested me about distance running was Daniel Komen's 7:58 2 mile record. Distance running is exciting to see people running FAST for long periods of time. That was 2 sub 4 minute miles back to back! With these people jogging for a while and then sprinting at the end, it takes away from the fun. We aren't helping the stereotype that distance running is boring. So what, it's fun to watch for the last minute? That doesn't help the fact it's boring for the first 12 minutes. Daniel Komen was exciting to watch the entire time! It's also ridiculous that Bekele has the 5000m record. He's primarily a 10K guy. He only has a 3:32 1500m best. Someone with a 3:30 or lower PB should have the 3000m and 5000m records. Moses Kipsiro in 2010 talked big that he would take the record, but neither he or anyone else is willing to push themselves to do it. Let's see some people running fast and bringing the best out of themselves, instead of these stupid jog for 80-90% of the race and then sprinting!

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12 years ago 07/08/2013 7:43am EDT

re: Jeff Wigand

Jeff Wigand wrote:
You need to remember that some of these teams these men are trying for are decided largely or entirely on season bests. So if you think you can get away and safely put the field away by running hard, then you do it. We saw it in Paris last year, we saw it a bit in Rome last month.
But if there are some real contenders in the field and they haven't fallen off early, then you taking up the job of the pacemaker in the later stages runs the risk that the times will end up being very quick and you may well end up fourth or fifth in a deep race. So now you're your country's number four or five man on time with limited opportunities to get into the top three and the standard of that top three is much higher thanks to your efforts.
So if you're already among the top fastest leading into a major championship, you have no interest in making it especially quick unless you can well confident of winning. If you're not, then give no help at all keeping the pace up, and kick like made so that no one approaches your season best.

Smart analysis^

12 years ago 07/08/2013 9:00am EDT

re: J.R.

they should run like lukas verzbicas did back in the day

12 years ago 07/08/2013 9:02am EDT

re: rupp-certified saladbar

This is a great point by JR.
Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.
Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.
All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.

Please.

That "race" shouldn't be used as data to support any argument. World class runners at 15:00+ 5K pace are essentially jogging, making that race a useless outlier. Of course Lagat didn't pay an "aerodynamic penalty". Good grief.

12 years ago 07/08/2013 10:10am EDT

re: Giant Johnson

Giant Johnson wrote:
hchdh wrote:
I can't believe I'm agreeing with JR, but your quote is exactly what he's saying. Everyone knows they can't out kick Farah in a slow race (I.e., compared to Farah they are aerobic monsters with zero speed), so why do they keep trying to out kick him? Their only hope is to take it out hard and win by a fast time or by a fast time with a kick. Slow time and kick is not a good choice based on results thus far.
They are not aerobic monsters compared to Farah, though. He's the best runner in the world right now. Whether the race is fast or slow he is probably going to be the one winning it. The advantage of a slow race is that you'll have a better chance of getting Farah into a box late and delay his ability to react to a kick. But if a change in tactics is in order I guarantee you that whoever does the work to set a fast pace isn't going to be the one winning the race. It will be o/ne of his teammates sitting back in the pack. The reason for that should be obvious but our boy J.R. doesn't seem to understand why.

Yes, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. We don't know if Farah is the best runner in the world. His PR is still in the 12:5x range, isn't it? The guys he has beaten have shown that they are capable of running 12:40. Farah has not shown this capability yet. So, as of yet, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. That's what you are if you keep getting out kicked in slow races when you have the faster PR.

12 years ago 07/08/2013 10:18am EDT

re: The Waterboy

The race in Lausanne was only a little slower than the fastest ever there, which went in 12:59 while attempting to get to 12:53 or so. It is hard to do at the modest but non-trivial altitude of the city.

As for times, I thought these things were Races, not Postal time-trial send-in-your-best-time events. If you do not like racing, then why the heck do you follow track and field?

12 years ago 07/08/2013 10:47am EDT

re: hchdh

due to blood passports, no one is able to run 12:40.

12:50 at best. Moh Fara can run with anyone.

He is the monster.

12 years ago 07/08/2013 11:01am EDT

re: 26mi235

They aren't races, unless they are racing.

12 years ago 07/08/2013 11:14am EDT

re: yyy

yyy wrote:
due to blood passports, no one is able to run 12:40.
12:50 at best. Moh Fara can run with anyone.
He is the monster.

They were running 12:40 caliber races just last year. What are you talking about? Farah had not proven that he can run with anyone. All he's proven is that he can kick with anyone.

12 years ago 07/09/2013 7:50am EDT

re: maj

Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.
Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.
All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.

maj wrote:
That "race" shouldn't be used as data to support any argument. World class runners at 15:00+ 5K pace are essentially jogging, making that race a useless outlier. Of course Lagat didn't pay an "aerodynamic penalty". Good grief.

I agree that race was pathetic, but you are showing yourself to be scientifically clueless.

Are you really saying that there is significant resistance from air at 13:00 pace but not 15:00 pace? What about elite women? Men benefit from drafting but women don't? This is one of the stupider posts I've seen this week.

The answer, of course, is that there is almost no benefit to "drafting" at ANY pace. There is a psychological benefit to being paced, though, which many stupidly ascribe to "wind-breaking."

12 years ago 07/09/2013 7:52am EDT

re: hchdh

hchdh wrote:
Yes, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. We don't know if Farah is the best runner in the world. His PR is still in the 12:5x range, isn't it? The guys he has beaten have shown that they are capable of running 12:40. Farah has not shown this capability yet. So, as of yet, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. That's what you are if you keep getting out kicked in slow races when you have the faster PR.

hchdh wrote:
Farah had not proven that he can run with anyone. All he's proven is that he can kick with anyone.

Now, if only they could race like it.

12 years ago 07/09/2013 4:00pm EDT

re: rupp-certified saladbar

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.
Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.
All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.
maj wrote:
That "race" shouldn't be used as data to support any argument. World class runners at 15:00+ 5K pace are essentially jogging, making that race a useless outlier. Of course Lagat didn't pay an "aerodynamic penalty". Good grief.
I agree that race was pathetic, but you are showing yourself to be scientifically clueless.
Are you really saying that there is significant resistance from air at 13:00 pace but not 15:00 pace? What about elite women? Men benefit from drafting but women don't? This is one of the stupider posts I've seen this week.
The answer, of course, is that there is almost no benefit to "drafting" at ANY pace. There is a psychological benefit to being paced, though, which many stupidly ascribe to "wind-breaking."

First of all - I agreed with your premise - Lagat did not pay an "aerodynamic penalty" in that race.

Second, you call me scientifically clueless, and I'm not sure why. You infered something that I wasn't saying. You are the one who used a statistical outlier to support your "scientific" argument, which is something that people who aren't "scientifically clueless" don't do.

If you want to speak intelligently in support of your argument, maybe use a body of data from races that tested the physical abilities of elite male 5k runners (12:55 - 13:15 range for example), or elite female 5k runners (14:40 - 15:00).

12 years ago 07/09/2013 4:20pm EDT

re: maj

maj wrote:
This is a great point by JR.
Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.
Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.
All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.
Please.
That "race" shouldn't be used as data to support any argument. World class runners at 15:00+ 5K pace are essentially jogging, making that race a useless outlier. Of course Lagat didn't pay an "aerodynamic penalty". Good grief.

STOP misusing the the word "jogging"! 15 min 5k pace is 2:06:24 marathon pace! That ain't jogging!!!!

12 years ago 07/10/2013 9:18am EDT

re: maj

maj wrote:
If you want to speak intelligently in support of your argument, maybe use a body of data from races that tested the physical abilities of elite male 5k runners (12:55 - 13:15 range for example), or elite female 5k runners (14:40 - 15:00).

Zzz. You're just getting worse now.

Are you saying the wind resistance only exists at PR pace but not when running at tempo pace?

So, aerodynamic penalty when a 13:00 guy leads a 15:00 race, but not when he leads a 15:00 race?

Here's the answer: Negligible aerodynamic benefit to drafting, at ANY running speed.

12 years ago 07/10/2013 9:24am EDT

re: subfive

subfive wrote:
STOP misusing the the word "jogging"! 15 min 5k pace is 2:06:24 marathon pace! That ain't jogging!!!!

He's not misusing the word. It IS jogging if they are only running 2 miles at that pace.

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