Shorter went to medical school, and his dad was a doctor.
Shorter went to medical school, and his dad was a doctor.
wq40r89asdjh;kla wrote:
That's why the people in this sport who cover for the druggies have helped to ruin it... Americans see people like Frank Shorter or Pre winning big races and they want to do it too... back when there were no drugs Frank used to regularly thrash Africans and Pre got his Olympic fouth place behind 3 Causcasians...
You can't find a picture of Frank losing to an African because it never happened....now we know --- the 2:04 marathoners are quite simply FRAUDS.
But a white guy running a minute faster than shorter is not a fraud?
There most definitely were drugs when Shorter ran. In fact he's still complaining about losing to a doper (Cierpinski).
I think what the coach is alluding to is that no matter how much EPO you take, there are some certain times for a race that a human being will never make, and that the top runners in the world (if they are supposedly clean) are already hovering at this limit. In other terms, if you are a 2.04 marathoner and God knows you are clean, you can take all the EPO you want but will probably never live to see 2.03.
You have to remember that the best marathoners in Kenya have lived at extremely high altitudes for hundreds of years and thus have probably the upper limit of human blood cell capacity and ratios such that the advantage of EPO is limited, for example, compared to a fast marathoner who has grown at sea level. Well, not everyone who lives at high altitudes can run fast (for example guys at Himalayas) because you also need certain body types/muscles as well as culture e.g. always running to school e.tc. I would say 99% of middle & long distance Kenyan are Kalenjins, who have grown in high altitudes in the Rift Valley, 0.8% are Kikuyus who have also lived in high altitudes e.g.Sammy Wanjiru, Catherine Ndereba, and the rest 0.2 are split among 40 or so other tribal groups.
the biggest protestors wrote:
Shorter went to medical school, and his dad was a doctor.
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No,Frank went to law school and he admits to a tough relationship with his father.
But a white guy running a minute faster than shorter is not a fraud?[/quote]
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A minute faster is possible for a white or black, but 6 minutes faster on a regular basis, no!
Don't play the race card with me. It's your problem as you know Lance cheated but can't admit to yourself that the Epo-thians did too.
Exactly. There has to be some kind of diminishing limit on returns from EPO, or else you'd get into a bizarre situation with elite marathoners where a clean 2:06 guy could destroy the current world record with doping.
Examples below, assuming a linear 5% improvement for marathoners:
Natural Doped
02:20 02:13:20
02:18 02:11:20
02:16 02:09:30
02:14 02:07:30
02:12 02:05:40
02:10 02:03:50
02:08 02:01:50
02:06 02:00:00
02:04 01:58:05
So, clearly there's got to be a limiting factor beyond what EPO can provide here, unless you're one of those people who thinks sub-2:10 is impossible without doping.
Hope the formatting comes out right.
wq40r89asdjh;kla wrote:
But a white guy running a minute faster than shorter is not a fraud?
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A minute faster is possible for a white or black, but 6 minutes faster on a regular basis, no![/quote]
Why not? Shorter and his contemporaries were regularly 10 minutes faster than those that had run 20 years before them. And Shorter, Kardong and others were amateurs. Someone with more talent, who is solely focused on training and recovery, getting daily physiotherapy to ward off injury and who has the financial motivations should be running much faster than post-collegiate amateurs. I think it's hard to overstate those advantages.
How do we know that there really are clean 2:06 guys?
Why not? Shorter and his contemporaries were regularly 10 minutes faster than those that had run 20 years before them. And Shorter, Kardong and others were amateurs. Someone with more talent, who is solely focused on training and recovery, getting daily physiotherapy to ward off injury and who has the financial motivations should be running much faster than post-collegiate amateurs. I think it's hard to overstate those advantages.[/quote]
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Someone with more talent than Frank Shorter???? You'd have to look far and wide to find those few.....Frank ran a 13:27 5k and a 27:45 10k before his marathon gold and silver....as a matter of fact, he got 5th place in the 1972 Olympic final for 10k behind Viren,Puttemans, and Yifter (count the total medals of that group: Viren 4 gold, Puttemans a silver, Yifter 1 or 2 golds Frank a gold and silver)
I remember Frank winning a 2-mile indoors (22 laps) in something like 8:42 so don't tell me about a lack of talent.
Secondly, Frank was solely focused on his traing --- he got 20 miles a day in 2/3 sessions for yrs....
Thirdly, daily "pysiotherapy" is wasted tim; time would be better spent getting in a few more miles.Lastly, runners like Frank did not run for "financial" rewards. He was a pure warrior who did what he loved...Hey, maybe I should be the president of the Frank Shorter fan club or something, but I am sick and tired of people saying that all the Kenyans are more talented that the great Americand we DO have.
So tether, Special K, wanjiru etc were all hacks? All these fast summer 10000m races showed that te superhuman marathon guys struggled to approach within 40s of the wr.
Doping is rampant in Africa. Everyone knows it. Some try to hide it.
Renato - people do not care if you room with kemboi. People assume you're the source of doping. You probably are.
It is very hard for me to believe that Canova actually believes this nonsense he is spouting.
He is using circular logic to try to defeat this idea. He says that increasing your hematocrit through EPO would not help the best runners in the world, because they are already running 8:00 St, 26:30 for 10k and 2:05 for marathon. But we have no idea what their hematocrit was when they ran these times or before then. Therefore there is no way you can argue that it would help.
What he is ignoring is what is clear to all of us and to the non-ignorant among us that have followed distance running and other sports for 20 or more years - the EPO is what is making them 2:05 marathoners. Without all of the potent drugs that have been used for the last 50 years and EPO for 23, they would be 8:15 Steeplers and 27:40 10kers and 2:10 marathoners.
It is funny that he thinks this would fool anybody but a 3rd grader. "Yeah, it would help a 2:14 runner (he's an amateur!) and a 2:12 runner, and a 2:10 runner, and a 2:07 runner (he's not an internationalist!)."
How does he figure that it boosts the oxygen-carrying capacity of blood for the very-fast but not the fastest? I also am starting to doubt that he knows as much as he thinks he does when he says that a 28:30 runner is underperforming when shooting for a 2:12. That is EXACTLY what a 28:30 runner should be shooting for. How do I know? I can give you 3 dozen examples of runners BEFORE the EPO era that had PRs very close to 28:30/2:12.
Just because he coached an Italian to 30:22/2:11:34 just means that the athlete was taking full advantage of all the EPO and transfusions he could and was ALSO UNDERperforming at 10k.
One thing that most of the LR crowd does not know is that blood-packing (transfusions) have been common practice in Italy for 40 years at least. Cycling is a huge sport there and crooked doctors have a long history there, just as they do for running. They used to stick to helping Italian athletes, but now they have branched out to Africa once they saw that that is where the best opportunities are.
I am not just pulling this out of my ear, see names like:
Michele Ferrari
Luigi Cecchini
Francesco Conconi
Dr. Gabriele Rosa
Spain has their share too:
Luis Garcia del Moral
Jose Marti
Eufemiano Fuentes
I know this because several cyclists have admitted that they doped. Canova would tell you they weren't good enough to matter, but does the name Francesco Moser mean anything to you?
If I were Canova, I would not waste any more time posting on Letsrun for those that CANNOT make him any money. He needs to figure out what he is going to do for money after the Kenyan Gravy Train is shut down. One by one, the bad doctors are being drummed out of cycling. Granted, doping still goes on, it is just not as accepted as it once was. Track is becoming more like cycling, where the doping is necessary, but harder to accomplish.
In track it was talked about OPENLY in the 70s, check old TaFNews interviews. Athletes admitted that they did it. Even in the 80s ... google the SI article on US blood doping in the '84 Olympics.
The problem is that when we bust the athletes, more just fill the void, they may not be super-champions, but there are more there to step in. The same with the doctors, and one disciplined and well-organized doctor can dope 500 athletes EASY.
It could be that a 2:03-2:04 is already on EPO.
I don't think Renato Canova will be listening to your "advice".
In cycling, everyone benefitted from EPO. Why is it in distance running, EPO is only available in East Africa?In racing, we use time to measure the winner, not hematocrit or oxygen-carrying capacity.Consider the following hypothetical athlete:- After 2 months of EPO, a 27:30 athlete can run 27:00- After 2 years of training, the same 27:30 athlete can run 27:00The question is, how much will EPO help this runner, when he is able to run 27:00 off pure training? No one has looked at these athletes at their peaks.Studies that claim a 40 second improvement in 10Ks from EPO cannot be used to support a claim of 40 second improvement for sub 27:00 elite athletes. The improvement, if any, will be much smaller, possibly negligible or unmeasurable.
Let me help you wrote:
...
- the EPO is what is making them 2:05 marathoners.
How does he figure that it boosts the oxygen-carrying capacity of blood for the very-fast but not the fastest?
...
the problem with your argument is that it is a completely
hypothetical athlete. How do you know that your runner
would improve to 27:00 with proper training in years and
26.48:00 or 27:17:48?
wq40r89asdjh;kla wrote:
Why not? Shorter and his contemporaries were regularly 10 minutes faster than those that had run 20 years before them. And Shorter, Kardong and others were amateurs. Someone with more talent, who is solely focused on training and recovery, getting daily physiotherapy to ward off injury and who has the financial motivations should be running much faster than post-collegiate amateurs. I think it's hard to overstate those advantages.
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Someone with more talent than Frank Shorter???? You'd have to look far and wide to find those few.....Frank ran a 13:27 5k and a 27:45 10k before his marathon gold and silver....as a matter of fact, he got 5th place in the 1972 Olympic final for 10k behind Viren,Puttemans, and Yifter (count the total medals of that group: Viren 4 gold, Puttemans a silver, Yifter 1 or 2 golds Frank a gold and silver)
I remember Frank winning a 2-mile indoors (22 laps) in something like 8:42 so don't tell me about a lack of talent.
Secondly, Frank was solely focused on his traing --- he got 20 miles a day in 2/3 sessions for yrs....
Thirdly, daily "pysiotherapy" is wasted tim; time would be better spent getting in a few more miles.Lastly, runners like Frank did not run for "financial" rewards. He was a pure warrior who did what he loved...Hey, maybe I should be the president of the Frank Shorter fan club or something, but I am sick and tired of people saying that all the Kenyans are more talented that the great Americand we DO have.[/quote]
Do you ever wonder why virtually every top East African runner comes from one of about five tribes?
Let me help you wrote:
What he is ignoring is what is clear to all of us and to the non-ignorant among us that have followed distance running and other sports for 20 or more years - the EPO is what is making them 2:05 marathoners. -
Where were all the 2:05 marathon runners in the 1990s when there was no EPO test and runners could take it to their heart's content?
Let me help you wrote:
I can give you 3 dozen examples of runners BEFORE the EPO era that had PRs very close to 28:30/2:12.
I would like to see 36 names.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that EPO "is only available in Easy Africa." Kenya just happens to be the focus of this thread.
Do you ever wonder why virtually every top East African runner comes from one of about five tribes?[/quote]
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Tribes? I'll give you a tribe...The world record in the 4x one mile is held by
Ireland not Kenya.
Ireland has 4 million people -- Kenya has 43 million...Kenyas success since the 90's is built on drugs.
Without their drugs, the mythical tribes of Kenya do not impress all that much.