How much would you have to be paid to run for a living?

No Way wrote:

This same topic comes up every few months. It's the people who live on peanuts that always start it (myself included) and people who live on more who don't understand. There are some poor folk who try to make the richer folk feel like they should live frugally just because they can. I don't know why this always happens.

As someone who has lived on less than $20k for most of my life, I'm not trying to make richer folk feel like they SHOULD live frugally. I'm just trying to let them know that living well really doesn't cost that much money. Unless living well means spending $50 on a one person tv dinner like that NYC guy.

These richer people on this thread just seem so close-minded about the fact that it just doesn't cost that much to support a family.

Saul Goodman wrote:

Again, you don't have kids. Have a kid, then convince me you won't do everything in your power to overestimate, overcompensate, whatever, to make sure those kids are taken care of.

If you can tell me you make under $20k and support yourself and at least one kid (maybe a spouse too?), maybe I'll eat my words. But then again, if you're supporting yourself and a kid on less than $20k I will question your ability as a parent.

Actually, can you make me a list of these expenses that would make $20k not enough money?

Living off $20k is not realistic unless you're living with mom and dad.

I made $68k the last few years, bought a house ($1800 a month), a huge tv for the new pad ($2900), a new Honda CRV ($375 a month), got great health insurance though my employer (free), and I still am able to save $1200 a month and eat out and go on 4 vacations this year. Then at the end of the year I usually get a $5000 check back from the government as a tax return.

Oh yea, I still log in 50 miles a week and run a 15 minj-ish 5k. I also work between 8 and 10 hour days.

Just curious, do you have a family? I've lived pretty decently on less than 20k/year for about 10 years now (got my BA and now getting the PhD), but I don't have a family.

My brother has two kids. One of them has had developmental problems and the other one recently broke his arm. It would be impossible to give them the care that the need on the salary you're talking about, without any kind of handouts. If you have a family there are "needs" you can't foresee.

If we lived in a country with universal health care and a good school system then I'd be more inclined to buy your argument. Yes, if we go by Maslow's pyramid, theoretically you could live off very little. In practice, I would never ever have a family if I couldn't plan for the contingencies I mentioned above.

Exactly

ttyrdyjud wrote:

No Way wrote:

This same topic comes up every few months. It's the people who live on peanuts that always start it (myself included) and people who live on more who don't understand. There are some poor folk who try to make the richer folk feel like they should live frugally just because they can. I don't know why this always happens.

As someone who has lived on less than $20k for most of my life, I'm not trying to make richer folk feel like they SHOULD live frugally. I'm just trying to let them know that living well really doesn't cost that much money. Unless living well means spending $50 on a one person tv dinner like that NYC guy.

These richer people on this thread just seem so close-minded about the fact that it just doesn't cost that much to support a family.

ttyrdyjud wrote:

Fluffy wrote:

Yes, but according to the idiots on this thread you can support them comfortably for 20k a year!

We're not idiots. We've done it. Exactly what NEEDS do your children have? How much do these needs cost? Do the math and you will see that $20k is fine.

1. Yes, you are an idiot.

2. You don't have a family so YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT.

3. You have no idea what you're talking about.

4. Living comfortably has more to do than just needs. If you only worried about your needs then you would just live in a tent in the woods.

If you're a troll then 7/10

He might be an idiot, but it isn't because of what he's saying here. How do you know he doesn't have kids? Having a family with an income of 20k is tough but it's doable. Like I said earlier, my single mother raised my sister and me on not much more that that. I'm really glad that you've never been in a position that forced you to do that, but to assume that everyone is so lucky is extremely pig-headed.

Fluffy wrote:

ttyrdyjud wrote:

We're not idiots. We've done it. Exactly what NEEDS do your children have? How much do these needs cost? Do the math and you will see that $20k is fine.

1. Yes, you are an idiot.

2. You don't have a family so YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT.

3. You have no idea what you're talking about.

4. Living comfortably has more to do than just needs. If you only worried about your needs then you would just live in a tent in the woods.

If you're a troll then 7/10

I would gladly take $20k a year to run full time. Shit I'll just stay with my parents and put the $20k in the bank. Pays off not having a family yet lol

Actually, can you make me a list of these expenses that would make $20k not enough money?

Interesting topic. If I had no family I would run and eat and sleep for 20k.

As it is, family insurance plan 5000/yr and that is before out of pocket expenses. If someone gets sick it's up to 4000 more in deductibles.

Mortgage on a relatively small home loan - 8500/yr.

Easily 1500/yr for food (before buying any steaks or beer).

Two cars but one is paid for. 4000/yr for the loan + $500 expenses for the old car.

Clothes - no idea how much, but with kids always need new stuff.

Travel/vacation - not essential but certainly enriching for the kids and a mental break from working for me.

Then mobile phone, cable/internet undoubtably optional but useful with a family. Not to mention fees and costs for kid's sports and other activities. Might want to eat out or see a movie once in awhile, etc.

A family on 20k would have to forego most of the optional expenses and would almost certainly get assistance on food and health care expenses.

I would not choose to live that way.

That they not only have all of their basic needs (food, water, shelter), but they live in a good neighborhood, have money for college, have emergency money in case something happens (to them, their house, etc). I don't really think I should need to list everything. To me, just providing a roof and a sack of rice isn't enough. Look, I don't make a ton but you $20k/year people are either under 20 and don't know what real life is yet or incompetent and trying to justify why you don't make more by saying you don't need more. If all you need is the basics, why don't you people just go build a log cabin in the woods? Certainly you could live off under $20k with no rent, no car, and growing your own food, right? We in the civilized world know that it's wise to not only provide for your immediate basic needs, but for unforseens, the future, etc. And we would also like to have some fun (go to a movie, eat dinner out once in a while).

Under $20k a year, are you able to:

-Provide adequate food, shelter for yourself and child(ren)?

-Live in a safe neighborhood?

-Provide healthcare (medical, dental) for at least your child(ren) (maybe yourself as well)?

-Save enough for emergencies?

Those are the necessities. Here are a handful of non-essentials (that are important in my opinion):

-Save for college?

-Save for your own retirement? *To me this is also a necessity, however, I understand that some people are okay with working until they die, taking government assistance for elderly care, or forcing their family to care for them when they can no longer work.

-Provide some means of entertainment for family so they don't have to live like cavemen? (Going to the movies, zoo, etc every now and then, buying things like bikes, musical instruments, sporting equipment, going on a nice vacation every once in a while, etc.)

It's becoming clear to me that this isn't a 'care for your family' issue, but more of a 'responsible personal finance' issue. Based on what I can tell from your posts, you're either not old enough to understand these things or you're just not bright enough to understand that: a)they're important and/or b)how much they cost.

If I was single, I would have no problem running for as little as $20,000/year up to about age 30. At some point, you need to start planning for the future.And really, the issue isn't whether it is POSSIBLE to support a family on $20,000/year while running professionally, but rather whether it is selfish/immature to put your desires ahead of your family's (i.e., you probably can't afford to get your kids involved in many organized sports that require equipment, travelling expenses, etc. if you're only bringing in $20,000/year).If you were divorced from your wife and were paying child support based on your $20,000/year income when you were educated enough to be earning four times that, I bet she'd take you to court to receive support based on what you should be earning and WIN.

ttyrdyjud wrote:

Saul Goodman wrote:

Again, you don't have kids. Have a kid, then convince me you won't do everything in your power to overestimate, overcompensate, whatever, to make sure those kids are taken care of.

If you can tell me you make under $20k and support yourself and at least one kid (maybe a spouse too?), maybe I'll eat my words. But then again, if you're supporting yourself and a kid on less than $20k I will question your ability as a parent.

Actually, can you make me a list of these expenses that would make $20k not enough money?

The point is that people don't choose to live that way. Not everyone can have a good job. You can have a family of three, make 20k and still be above the poverty threshold. Believe it or not, some full time jobs pay less than $10/hr. There aren't enough skilled/professional jobs to employ every adult in the country. No one here is saying that you should live this way, we're simply saying that if that is the hand that you're dealt, it is possible to do ok.Like I said, my single mother made 28k and raised 2 kids. Both of us went to college and are now making much more than she did. She sacrificed a ton for us so one of the first things we did after my sister finished college and moved out was to pool our money and help get my mother into a nicer apartment closer to work. It was our way of paying her back for everything.The thing is though, we weren't the poorest family around. I know a lot of people who were worse off and still ended up going to college and being successful. I don't know what world you live in where you think every household is making 100k a year, but it simply isn't happening. Take off the blinders and look around. It doesn't mean that they're bad people or lazy (obviously some are). There are many hardworking Americans working 2 jobs to make ends meet who still aren't pulling in that much money. It's just the way it is.

No Way wrote:

You can have a family of three, make 20k and still be above the poverty threshold.

No you cant. The 2011 poverty thresholds for a family of three are $17,595, $18,106, and $18,123 for a household with zero, one, or two kids respectively.

And when I say "no you can't" I mean "yes you can".

OK. So it's agreed that if many people had to, they could probably make due with less money than they have now.But your mother, as a single mom, probably would not have chosen to be a professional runner, making $20,000/year, if someone offered her a job where she'd get paid double that. So $20,000/year to run professionally would probably not be a good option for someone who had to support a family who had other, better options to bring in an income.Of course, if one could depend on a spouse for financial security, $20,000/year to run wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Saul Goodman wrote:

Under $20k a year, are you able to:

-Provide adequate food, shelter for yourself and child(ren)?

-Live in a safe neighborhood?

-Provide healthcare (medical, dental) for at least your child(ren) (maybe yourself as well)?

-Save enough for emergencies?

Rent in a good neighborhood: $600-800/month

Food: $1000-1500/yr (diverse, not rice and water, does require cooking)

That leaves about $10,000 left over.

Entertainment: an Xbox costs $200ish, Hulu free, kids should be asleep by 8 or 9 anyway. Internet? (no kid had internet 15 years ago). Local library has free internet. But internet doesn't cost that much anyway if you really want it.

Cellphone:$50-$300 per year depending on the plan and network

Bike:$30

Musical Instruments:$50-$200

Transportation: public transportation is good and inexpensive, bike, walk, carpool.

Camping/hiking vacation:$100-$200

That's not even another $1000.

So, that's another $8000-9000ish dollars leftover for a family vacation, some going out, some whatever, insurance, savings.

I and plenty of people (in families) I know have lived like this. It was not hard. We had plenty of fun and never felt like we were missing out on anything. We didn't take 10 family vacations to foreign countries every year, but we did take 2-3 family vacations per year.

Taking government assistance for elderly care isn't a bad thing. They've been paying for it their whole lives through taxes. This is like withdrawing your savings from a bank. I don't know why people are so ashamed of this and things like food stamps. You've already paid for it (if you're old enough).

Saving for college is not that hard. When you turn 14/15, start working and save money. Work for a year or two before you start college. Or, you can make thousands of dollars during college summer break. There are scholarships and financial aid. And there are cheap student loans. Or you can go to school part time and work part time.

Lots of people do these things and do well and without struggling. It's really not hard or miserable. They have a great time.

Are we assuming that being a professional runner is our only job if we're doing it for a living? One could potentially work a part-time job in addition to having a professional running career.

If we're assuming no other job, I'd probably need to make $60K. If I'm also able to put 20-30 hours per week into running a business on the side, I'd do it for $40K.

Mostly agree with this.I'd PREFER to work part-time (I'd go stir crazy if I had nothing to focus on but running), but I'd rather work for someone else, i.e., 20 hours/week in a shoe store. Too much hassle running my own business.If I couldn't work, i.e., sponsor expected me to make appearances or to focus solely on workouts and recovery (who knows, some groups have contracts that control who you date), I'd require more money; not just because I wouldn't have the income the second job provided, but because I'm sure I'd need to see a sports psychologist more with all the extra spare time and nothing else going for me careerwise.

Bear of Bad News wrote:

Are we assuming that being a professional runner is our only job if we're doing it for a living? One could potentially work a part-time job in addition to having a professional running career.

If we're assuming no other job, I'd probably need to make $60K. If I'm also able to put 20-30 hours per week into running a business on the side, I'd do it for $40K.

The original question was 'how much would you have to be paid to run full time?'. I brought up the fact that none of the $20k folks could possibly have families.

Your first post in this thread was that you spend $1000/yr on food (which I personally find suspect, but whatever), yet when you broke down your food costs in response to my post about necessities with a family, you assume $1000-$1500 per year for food. So, extrapolating your food costs to now include wife and child, you've added another $0-$500 annually. Very interesting math. I'll stand by my assessment that you have no concept of personal/household finance. At any rate, low end for food (shopping wisely) would easily be $5k.

Rent $600-$800. I'll assume you live in an area with significantly lower housing costs and allow $8k for housing.

You seem to have forgotten about health care in your post. Let's round down to $200/mo/person. That's another $8k.

You also seem to have forgotten about emergency funds for accidents, appliances breaking, about a million other potential costs that you *should* be ready for. It would be wise to have at minimum 4 months of living expenses at the ready. Doesn't matter anyways, you won't have any money for savings, entertainment, retirement, college or anything else because you've already gone over your $20k just with food, rent, and medical. You won't have clothes either.

Why am I still responding to this?