Why the hell are we comparing female swimmers to el Guerrouj?
Also, Phelps is doped to the gills. DAT JAW.
Why the hell are we comparing female swimmers to el Guerrouj?
Also, Phelps is doped to the gills. DAT JAW.
post a link that shows her closing in the 4:40s. she also isn't 16 and hasn't come from nowhere.
Koneko wrote:
Why the hell are we comparing female swimmers to el Guerrouj?
Also, Phelps is doped to the gills. DAT JAW.
Chinese swimmers and Moroccan runners are drug cheats. Is that simple enough for you?
Ross Tucker wrote:
Good question.
Swimming is notoriously susceptible to technology, because technique and hydrodynamics have such an enormous effect on performance. If you look back on the history of the 100m freestyle record, for example, you see all kinds of "bumps" where seemingly arb things like goggles, swim caps, tumble turns were first introduced!
THe suits were massive - i calculated that the AVERAGE effect of the suits was about 2%. That was across male and female, and all distances and all strokes.
There were, by my count, 178 records in the two years that the suits were legal. There were 2 prior to the Games, and another 3 since.
It won't get anything like what we saw in Beijing, but certainly records are falling.
Have a look at the swimming events though, and take note of how far UNDER WR pace the swimmer is at the turns in the first half, and note how they struggle to keep ahead of the WR line at the end. Point is, what we are seeing now is that the starts and first half of races is much, much faster.
The reason for that is that they have modified the start blocks - you'll see a device on the block that allows them to drive off more than in the past. This has improved start times by a small but significant amount, and it's the reason (I think) that so many fast times are being done now - the guys are able to get out over the first 50m about 0.3 to 0.5s faster than before.
So when you see times that are comparable to 2008, they're actually slower SWIMMING times, but I suspect the start has made a difference.
Also, the swim caps are apparently new, and the pool design also helps - I believe the London pool has revolving shutters on the sides to take up the "wash" as swimmers go by, so it has lowered the effect of waves on swimmers.
Little things, little differences all add up and the effect is probably a 1 to 2% improvement. That's enough to cancel out the suit effect, almost.
Not quite, which is why we will not see 178 records in the next two years. And we definitely will not see 65 Olympic records in London. But we will see maybe 20, 30 of them.
Having said all this, I am sure there is doping in swimming. Why would it be immune? But I do think it doesn't explain the performance bumps, becuase doping will have been similar in 2012 as it was in 2008, so the difference is not the doping.
Ross
Thanks a lot for your understandable and very well written comments to the subject, Ross!
buffet rule not wrote:
post a link that shows her closing in the 4:40s. she also isn't 16 and hasn't come from nowhere.
she hardly came from nowhere. she was a world champion last year and in both 2010 & 2011 posted the fastest time in the world in the 200 im and second fastest in the 400im.
You asked for it. Here you go: http://tinyurl.com/cdc42hl. You will see that in the 2009 Chicago Marathon, Shobukhova hit 40K in 2:19:20, and finished in 2:25:56, for a final 2.2k of 6:36, which is 4:49.7 minutes per mile pace, or exactly 3:00 minutes per kilometer for those of us who do it that way. But I didn't say faster than some arbitrary time, I said faster than the male winner. The male winner was Sammy Wanjiru. He hit 40K in 1:58:56 and finished in 2:05:41, for a final 2.2K of 6:45. Yes, in the 2009 Chicago Marathon, Shobukhova closed faster than Sammy Wanjiru.
buffet rule not wrote:
post a link that shows her closing in the 4:40s. she also isn't 16 and hasn't come from nowhere.
And fair enough, she didn't come from nowhere. But she still closed faster than the male Olympic Gold Medallist, Sammy MF Wanjiru.
TheRussianBear wrote:
You asked for it. Here you go:
http://tinyurl.com/cdc42hl.
You will see that in the 2009 Chicago Marathon, Shobukhova hit 40K in 2:19:20, and finished in 2:25:56, for a final 2.2k of 6:36, which is 4:49.7 minutes per mile pace, or exactly 3:00 minutes per kilometer for those of us who do it that way.
But I didn't say faster than some arbitrary time, I said faster than the male winner. The male winner was Sammy Wanjiru. He hit 40K in 1:58:56 and finished in 2:05:41, for a final 2.2K of 6:45.
Yes, in the 2009 Chicago Marathon, Shobukhova closed faster than Sammy Wanjiru.
buffet rule not wrote:post a link that shows her closing in the 4:40s. she also isn't 16 and hasn't come from nowhere.
jjjjjjj wrote:Her performance, a WR, wouldn't be that special
moron
you haven't a clue
4'30.0 - 4'30.5
was expected winning time from anyone who "knows" swimming, whether it maya been biesel or the chinese, & that wouda been a great textile wr, "intrinsically" far superior to rice's 4'29.45 fast-suit
4'28.43 is ridiculous
and was clearly holding a great deal of energy in reserve
no
you have no knowledge whatsoever of this
she mughta been swimming eyeballs out to 300, but just that her 3 strokes weren't efficient, which is no suprise for hardest technical event, especially for a 16y ole
She may not be maximized at the other strokes
she isn't
she says her 3 other strokes need work
doesn't mean she put in lesser energy to them than the free leg
jao oliveria set 17.89wr with a step that wouda put a junior women tj'er to shame
but he still busted wr by 45cm with it
if he'd had any proper step he wouda jumped 18.20 - 18.30 back in '75
& gravity wasn't any great help - that mighta got him 10 - 15cm advantage
he shouda still jumped 18.10 at sea-level with a "man's" step
but to go as fast as Lochte the last 100m?? Put it this way: El G averaged about 55 in his 3:26 WR and closed in 53, roughly 2 seconds better than the average. The Chinese girl averaged 1:07/100m and closed the freestyle in 58, 9 seconds faster than her overall average and 12 seconds faster than the average for the first three laps. Granted that the freestyle is the fastest stroke, she obviously wasn't getting the advantage of the start on the fourth 100m
moron
utter drivel
Sun may be as well (his celebration looked pretty steroidal) but he has a track record at least.
idiot
you do realise he is
6'6
you indeed are right about shobukhova. very impressive running on her part.
Koneko wrote:
Why the hell are we comparing female swimmers to el Guerrouj?
Also, Phelps is doped to the gills. DAT JAW.
Ugh, you people and your random doping accusations. No, having a big jaw is not a sign of doping. Yes, I know you read that HGH makes your jaw grow.
If you want to see what HGH abuse does to a face, look at pro bodybuilders.
only you would savage someone even where he agrees with you. I didn't say that the time was not special but that a swimming world record is not that unusual, even post suits. Sun is tall and therefore cannot dope? sure, that's logic for you. Your arguments would persuade more if you did not go way over the top with each claim, asserting that your opponent has no knowledge whatsoever. You are the only nonmoron in the world, by your worldview. What's drivel about following through on the comparison to El Guerrouj: she absolutely destroyed her time on the previous strokes. Incidentally, if you look at the very best men at the 1500m, they can close a slow paced race sometimes in 50-1. El Guerrouj closed his WR in 53 and Ngeny closed his Olympic gold race in 54.3 (leader to leader, a 3:32 race). So, you find them only able to drop 3 seconds on the last lap from fast to slow pace up to the bell. What this girl did shows that she is analogous in ability to several Chinese women runners from almost 20 years ago, able likely to annihilate records at numerous distances at once, but holding back until she had to go to ensure the win.
She's 16 according to wiki. She was faster than Lochte in the last 50m, which is ridiculous.
Azaleas wrote:
Ugh, you people and your random doping accusations. No, having a big jaw is not a sign of doping. Yes, I know you read that HGH makes your jaw grow.
If you want to see what HGH abuse does to a face, look at pro bodybuilders.
This is some what off topic. But has anybody tried pulling out some youtube video clips of the races K. Bekele competed in the past decade or so (more like ~5-8 years back and those old ones may not be good resolution) and see the gap between his front teeth really has widen over the years?
Swimming is different. Women swimmers are swimming times that the men were in the late 70s. In track, the women aren't even close to what the men were doing in the late 70s.
jjjjjjj wrote:only you would savage someone even where he agrees with you
no
you posted drivel
I didn't say that the time was not special but that a swimming world record is not that unusual, even post suits
no
you haven't a clue
even post-suit, 4'30 - 4'30.5 wouda been expected to easily take gold
4'28.43 is stoopid
Sun is tall and therefore cannot dope? sure, that's logic for you
idiot
6'6 & training like a dog with top ozzie coaches ???
of course wrs are possible/actual
Your arguments would persuade more if you did not go way over the top with each claim, asserting that your opponent has no knowledge whatsoever
idiot
you clearly don't
You are the only nonmoron in the world, by your worldview
not by a long way
What's drivel about following through on the comparison to El Guerrouj: she absolutely destroyed her time on the previous strokes
moron
it's same as saying hop/step/jump shoud have some comparable value in tj
you expect a 18.00m guy to jump 6.00/6.00/6.00 ???
Incidentally, if you look at the very best men at the 1500m, they can close a slow paced race sometimes in 50-1. El Guerrouj closed his WR in 53 and Ngeny closed his Olympic gold race in 54.3 (leader to leader, a 3:32 race)
& i evened them out for you according to physics
something more please...
So, you find them only able to drop 3 seconds on the last lap from fast to slow pace up to the bell
jezus
What this girl did shows that she is analogous in ability to several Chinese women runners from almost 20 years ago
moron
they were using buck-standard hgh/steroids back then at big loads & still weren't going within 6s off this gal with far more stringent testing & tested outta blood as reigning 200 i m wc
able likely to annihilate records at numerous distances at once
she will
but holding back until she had to go to ensure the win
bullsh!t
moron
offer proof she held back
you have no clue about swimming
she destroyed a 4'07 gal by 3s in last 100
you don't give a 4'07 gal any leeway at 300
your peabrain can look up 400 free pbs of klochkova/schneider/ergerzegi to see what 400pbs they had when winning with 4'34/4'36s
She's 16 according to wiki
statement
comment ?
She was faster than Lochte in the last 50m, which is ridiculous.
no
he has shit 3'55pb
he also did likely swim too hard to 300 fearing mikey
how could she decimate a record that was made when swimmers were wearing those banned suits? i smell a fsh - no make that a whale. she's doped to the gills
So would anyone now suspect that Janet Evans - who broke not one, not two but THREE world records when she was 16 years old - was doping at that time?
All this finger-pointing is really ridiculous. How is that outliers other than American are always suspicious?
She went a very relaxed 208.9 (30.7 last 50 (I think n) this morning. She really shut it down at the end. I don't see how Kukor's record will stand.
I wish there was a ventolin filter for this board that would remove all of his posts.
Dude, you may think that you are contributing to the discussion by graciously sharing your genius with others but we don't care.
It was a nice and interesting discussion until you showed up.
I wouldn't blame Ross Tucker if he never posted on these boards again.
Another misunderstanding we have here is that she came out of nowhere at these Olympics.
Again she has been ranked in the top 2 in the world for three years in the LCM 400IM (2012- 1st, 2011 - 2nd, 2010 - 2nd). And ranked number 1 in the 200IM in 2010-2012.
Also, someone on this thread (Ross Tucker, I believe) mentioned that she improved 7 seconds from her 2011 WC time. This is true, although, a bit misleading. She went 4:33 in both 2010 and 2011. She has dropped 5.4 seconds since 2010 and 5.3 since 2011.
Why should that be a misunderstanding? What if you were a 16 year old in an Olympic competition and fingers were pointed at 'you' now you wouldn't like it. Would you? I like to call the process -- perfect peaking.