Cowtown Marathon Winner DQ'd

does he really need to? wrote:

Could you show me some case law to prove that the waiver is anything other than a meaningless formality? As far as I can see, the participant is willingly engaging in an activity that carries known risks. I can't imagine that the race, the RD, or anyone else would be liable unless the injury is the direct result of negligence. And if the injury is the result of negligence, then the waiver isn't going to help you.

Probably not true. You are able (in most cases) to waive ordinary negligence. Yout are usually not able to waive gross negligence (since it is against public policy). So the waiver really does provide some protection.

Kick The Bums Out wrote:

Doesn't solve the "problem" really. I would guess 99% of the people that want to transfer want to do it closer than a month out. That transfer policy is a logistical nightmare for race organizers that have plenty to do. People don't really get what goes into producing a large top quality event.

Did you not read my post? The Indy Mini has a transfer policy, even with 35,000 participants. They're obviously proving it's not a logistical nightmare. If anyone wants to know what goes into putting on a large top quality event, refer to them as the example.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

does he really need to? wrote:

Could you show me some case law to prove that the waiver is anything other than a meaningless formality? As far as I can see, the participant is willingly engaging in an activity that carries known risks. I can't imagine that the race, the RD, or anyone else would be liable unless the injury is the direct result of negligence. And if the injury is the result of negligence, then the waiver isn't going to help you.

Probably not true. You are able (in most cases) to waive ordinary negligence. Yout are usually not able to waive gross negligence (since it is against public policy). So the waiver really does provide some protection.

Here's a little reading about liability waivers and their enforceability. Note that although this covers a variety of participation activities, the very first example is from a large road race we have all heard of:

working hard for the money wrote:

Did you not read my post? The Indy Mini has a transfer policy, even with 35,000 participants. They're obviously proving it's not a logistical nightmare. If anyone wants to know what goes into putting on a large top quality event, refer to them as the example.

One could reasonably argue that the $20 (for a $55 race) transaction fee and transfer cutoff 4 weeks prior to the race to indicate that they don't consider the bib transfer logistics trivial.

It was paid for wrote:

The service was purchased. Why does it matter who uses it?

Exactly! I used to RD a local race (10 miler) with about 300 participants. It was several years ago, but for permits, food, porta-potties, race socks, prizes etc it cost a few thousand dollars. Our break even point was about $20 per participant. Our club is non profit so that's what we charged. What are typical 10k fees now? $50-60 dollars & few marathons are <$100?

The logistics of organizing a transfer are not as difficult as trying to prepare for an unknown number of last minute entries, which most races accomodate by charging more.

I don't deny that putting on a race is a lot of work (having done it) but the margins are pretty substantial and race organizations should offer better service including recognizing that injury is a part of running and participants need flexibility, rather than looking at their clients injury/misfortune as an opportunity to increase profit by disallowing transfers.

Now, don't get me started on surcharges for entry online!

wellacctually wrote:

Give the guy a break. First off, he works at a running store= Little income. One should look at it from his perspective.

He's a relatively competitive runner, as he won the race, nor was it on a fast course. A win is a win.

In all honesty, he had a paid for bib number, hammered out 26.2 miles, and most importantly, won the race. Do we really need to be so political correct, and such sticklers to DQ him? It's not always a bad thing to make an exception here and there, this is not the G'D Olympics were talking about, just some local elites that work full time jobs.

You know, that's just what I say!

this race wasn't some trial qualifier for an interrnational standard or wass it?

I call bullshit to the whole friggin' racing scene when I read/hear about crapola like this!!!!!!!!!!!

Allowing transfer pricing will be abused. I can sit in front of my computer and sign up for New York or Chicago and then wait for it to sell out and then sell the transfer to someone at multiple times the amount I paid. There are always people who will pay ridiculous amounts to get into a sold out race.

I can speak from the perspective of having worked for a company that produces races and has tried out both transfers and deferrals. There are a lot of not-so-obvious factors at play when you offer these services. For our biggest race, a marathon with 3600 entrants we used to allow transfers. This was 5+ years ago so maybe it's time for us to explore transfers again. We found about 8% of the entrants posted that they had a bib available. It was a ton of work for our Registration Director. We did charge $20 to complete a transfer, all of which was donated to a local youth running charity. Because of the extra work involved our Registration Director convinced us to look into doing it differently. We're all part-timers or volunteers here (it's a not-for-profit company) so when a key staff member says something is too much work you can either listen to them or find someone new. It's easier to listen.

One thing we also saw is that no matter how far backwards we bent to accomodate people it was perceived as never good enough. We had a transfer deadline 3 weeks out (in order to set the chip database, I know you can do that closer to raceday now) and inevitably we'd have people contact us after transfers were over asking to make an exception.

Another thing, despite the $20 transfer fee (entry fee was about $60 back then) and the fact that all proceeds went to charity, a lot of those who wanted a transfer thought the price was too high. What we heard a lot was "My buddy already paid for the race, why do I have to pay again?"

About 5 years ago we went to allowing deferrals only. If you enter and can't run for any reason we'll give you a discounted entry the next year, you pay about half price. Same as with transfers, we need to be informed you want a deferral about 2-3 weeks before the race. When we went to deferrals only the complaints dropped down to about zero. We still hear that we need to know too early, and we hear that half price is too much to pay, but I would say complaints are down over 90%.

In the specific case of Cowtown, all you can say to the guy who crossed the line first is "what were you thinking?!?" If you're a good enough runner to finish first in a race then you should know better. I don't understand where lack of respect for the race organizers on any level is okay. They don't allow transfers and you want a transfer - too bad! Work it out ahead of time with the RD or go elsewhere. Entry fee is too high, contact the RD. Anyone who contacts me and says one of my races costs too much I'll give them a volunteer job and they can earn their entry fee.

Or you can just play it like the world owes you something and do whatever you want.

By the way, the same thing happened this weekend at the American Birkebeiner, the most presitigous XC Ski race in the USA:

http://fasterskier.com/2012/02/dubay-discusses-mistake-birkie-dq/

If the race isn't full you make full registration price for people entering rather than going through the nightmare of transfers. How about doing that math? Just because another race does it that doesn't mean it's easy. Small races don't make money in the first place in a lot of cases. Not to cut into their "profits" would put a lot of races under.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Here's a little reading about liability waivers and their enforceability. Note that although this covers a variety of participation activities, the very first example is from a large road race we have all heard of:

http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/p&r396.htm

Good link. If you read it did you notice that the twit that sued Peachtree (and lost) was a law student? Nice.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

He didn't technically bandit.

Well he wasn't registered. And that means he was a bandit. The act of wearing someone else's number, or last year's number, or a forged number simply means Scott Downard logged a 26-mile training run on the Cowtown course.

Rumor is the DQ'd runner paced a friend in the half marathon. The DQ'd runner is from OK, the winner of the half is from OSU. If the DQ runner paced the winner of the half marathon should the half marathon winner be DQ'd?

Kick The Bums Out wrote:

Doesn't solve the "problem" really. I would guess 99% of the people that want to transfer want to do it closer than a month out. That transfer policy is a logistical nightmare for race organizers that have plenty to do. People don't really get what goes into producing a large top quality event.

And I would guess that your guess of 99% is absolutely, positively, flat-out wrong.

I have participated in the Indy Mini (discussed as one of the big races allowing transfers, up to 1-month prior to the race). Between friends & family, I haved helped facilitate transfers numerous times. 12 times, the person couldn't participate and wanted to sell their bib. 5 times the person wanted to buy a bib entry.

Of those 17 different instances, only 1 was too late, or within 1 month of the race. And that person wanted IN, not out.

That is 1/17, or 5.8%. Every bit of experience I have actually using a transfer process tells me your guess of 99% would actually be closer if you flipped it to 1%.

It's obvious you just made it up. In most cases in my experiences, the person wasn't training at all, or had something major (like attending a wedding) come up. These are not usually last-minute, or last-month issues. For the people transferring in - they usually were just surprised by how quickly the race filled up, so they knew 5 months in advance that they would like to participate.

Yes I did just take a number off the top of my head. Obvious exaggeration. But the numbers are MUCH MUCH higher of people that try to contact us about switching numbers within a month rather than outside that window. Those that do end up switching just do it anyways and wouldn't pay $20 to get it done. Most aren't "real" racers anyways concerned with a time or place. Allowing transfers doesn't benefit races in anyway so why would they do it? If you really think they are making money hand over fist on this you are dead wrong. RD should focus on putting on a good event that is well marked and accurate. Have good timing with a solid course.

Dicker wrote:

2:31 should not be allowed to be a winning time anyway.

I have run faster than that, and have never won a marathon. Nor did I expect to.

2:25 for men should be a cut off time for any marathon with more than 500 runners. No one uner 2:25? Then no winner.

I was waiting for someone to say it but im surprised how fast it happened. Only on letsrun.

Kick The Bums Out wrote:

Allowing transfers doesn't benefit races in anyway so why would they do it? ... RD should focus on putting on a good event that is well marked and accurate. Have good timing with a solid course.

Why would they do it? The same reason they do anything that participants appreciate. It makes the event as a whole more appealing. Not to mention, if you're putting on a race, seems like you'd like to have people that want to, participate.

The point I tried to originally make is that offering a transfer process (for events that fill up several months in advance), is part of what I consider a great event. The Indy Mini does this. They also provide a well-marked and accurate course, with good timing, etc...

As a result, I continue to select this race over other comparable races closer to me that don't offer a transfer option. I personally hate to throw away money, and I have had to eat an entry fee before. It sucks. Big waste of money.

With big races filling up so quickly, I think it's a huge perk. Years ago it wasn't necessary because races didn't fill up 9 months early.

Huge perk. Best of class practice. Wish more offered it. Not impossible. That's all I'm saying.

i scrolled through most of the conversation here and you guys are missing the bigger point. i got a much bigger trophy for 3rd overall than if i had just won my age group for 4th overall, haha.

also, i won the ultra at cowtown a couple years ago and for those of you that have been fortunate enough to lead a medium to large race, it is totally cool to have a police escort, don't underestimate that, especially when said police car or motorcycle parts the sea of slow-ass half-marathoners in front of you.

finally, cowtown is a very runner logistics friendly race, you could still sign up for any race a few days before the event. being cheap/lazy was the only reason to use someone else's bib.

codger wrote:

Also, Downard perpetuated a fraud.

There is no evidence that Doward perpetuated (sic) a fraud, because the race and his use of the unauthorized bib were not for an indefinite period of time.

He likely also did not perpetrate a fraud, because you would have to prove intent to deceive and injure another. Here, the entry and race services were paid for, he just used the bib, as one might use a ticket that someone else paid for to get into a game or a movie.

The race director also was not injured by the runner's actions, and the other competitors are not in a contractual relationship with any other competitor, and it is a game of chance with no guaranteed results, so there is no basis for injury.

Stretch might be constructive fraud based on some argument for a violation of a breach of public or private trust, but still, no injury, no tort.

So crap like this and this kind of legal argument B.S will continue to kill off good races. There will be nothing more than jog-a-walk-a-thons. I put on some non-running events, volunteer my time and energy, work really long hours to organize, work the event, etc. and crap like this pops up, when someone has violated a rule, policy, etc. and then pitches a bitch when something doesnt go their way ... so guess what, when it comes time to volunteer my time and energy to putting on the event again, guess what my response is? "No Fvcking Way!"