Renato Canova - Arthur Lydiard Coaches Roundtable

J.R. wrote:

His best runner Halberg, besides Snell, had a best time of only 2:28 for a marathon. I've got Halberg's book, and a fast distance run for him was around 6 minute pace.

Apparently you've never heard of Hans Kolehmainen, Paavo Nurmi, Arthur Newton, Jim Peters, Emil Zatopek, nor anyone else.

Who cares what Halberg or other did in a marathon, when my point is that Lydiard brought the marathon type training TO ALL DISTANCES from 800m and up, this is what I´ve tried to say but you just don´t get it.

Apparently you haven´t heard that runners in time of Kolehmainen and Nurmi did a massive part of them training by long WALKS, and they lacked real periodization that Lydiard created. I´m talking about running training here, not walking.

All of those names you listed was a low RUNNING mileage runners, nowhere near of 100mpw of total running in the base phase with systematic hard long runs, fool (as you called me).

J.R. wrote:

His best runner Halberg, besides Snell, had a best time of only 2:28 for a marathon. I've got Halberg's book, and a fast distance run for him was around 6 minute pace.

2.28 marathon pace = 5.40,2 per mile

"Fast distance run for him was around 6 minute pace".

It´s just like I wrote how these long runs ala Lydiard are done: at OR CLOSE to marathon pace. Case closed.

Huckleberry Finn wrote:

2.28 marathon pace = 5.40,2 per mile

"Fast distance run for him was around 6 minute pace".

Huh so you're agreeing with me and trying to make it sound like a L revelation. This is exactly what I've been saying, that the L-clones will take a turnip and exclaim, "hey look, it's a lobster!"

News flash, 6 minute pace is not a fast distance run for a world class runner. It's not surprising that Halberg could not race a marathon any faster than 2:28.

It´s just like I wrote how these long runs ala Lydiard are done: at OR CLOSE to marathon pace. Case closed.

So, Halberg slogged through SLOW distance runs, and raced a SLOW marathon at about the SAME pace. Game, Set, Match.

Huckleberry Finn wrote:

Who cares what Halberg or other did in a marathon

Right, just hide your head in the sand.

my point is that Lydiard brought the marathon type training TO ALL DISTANCES from 800m and up, this is what I´ve tried to say but you just don´t get it.

The point is that you keep trying to promote a FAILED training method. NONE of the world class 800m runners do L type of training.

You and the other L-clones have no clue of what Kolehmainen, Nurmi, or any other world class runners and coaches have done. You think L invented physiology, the moon and the stars, and that L taught physiology to Gershler, Holman and Reindell.

fool (as you called me).

hehehe what made you think I was referring to you.

J.R. wrote:

The point is that you keep trying to promote a FAILED training method. NONE of the world class 800m runners do L type of training.

Either do the top 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, or marathon runners.

J.R. wrote:

J.R. wrote:

The point is that you keep trying to promote a FAILED training method. NONE of the world class 800m runners do L type of training.

Either do the top 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, or marathon runners.

What´s "L type of training" to you? Like I´ve said you shouldn´t take his programs LITERALLY. I agree with you totally that the planning wasn´t perfect in the terms of these days, when you can´t hide from speed as much as in the 60´s. How you can be so sure about what every single top 800-marathon runners does in training? There´s for sure plenty of runners who uses these moderate hard long runs (sub lactate threshold as you know in these days), tempo runs, fartlek runs or is training at level very close to what Lydiard said about optimal overall volume, and uses different training during different phases. Lydiard made it clear that you should AVOID the HARD interval training in the base phase that was normal in the past.

After Snell´s success people realised that even 800m runner needs to work them basic endurance hard, and aim for higher overall volume than was usual before. He changed the way the people thought about the importance of basic endurance training in distance running at 800m and longer.

Good luck with the Canova training. I think that you should still include the long moderate hard runs, tempo runs, easy runs etc. ala Lydiard in your/your athletes (hope not) schedule. I will not comment this subject further with you, because you constantly ignore my points.

My take on it, from a simplistic point of view, is that Renato Canova has simply taken the principles of Lydiard and extended them into a more specific marathon phase. A lot of his stuff uses similar ideas to some of the initial schedules published by Lydiard (1st ed Run to the top). It is more appropriate to the times for the elites, but too much for your average joe runner to absorb and benefit from (taking into account work, lack of rest, etc).

What I do wonder is what a coach of the calibre, knowledge and ability of Barry Magee would propose for a complete schedule for a marathoner knowing what he now does and has said about Lydiard not necessarily producing great marathoners by today's standards? Obviously we are talking about a theoretical situation for an elite runner and all that goes with that (rest, running focus/no day job, etc).

Is there any chance that somebody on here who knows Barry could get his take on it please?

I know Barry very well but I really do not want to get involved in yet another of these "Lydiard" threads. Drop me an e-mail and I'll tell you what I know.

Huckleberry Finn wrote:

What´s "L type of training" to you?

It's an unfounded religious disorder, spouting constant nonsense and blind to reality.

It has nothing to do with religion, and it´s you who´s spouting constant nonsense and blind to reality.

Huckleberry Finn wrote:

It has nothing to do with religion, and it´s you who´s spouting constant nonsense and blind to reality.

See what I mean! You asked me a question, which I answered EXACTLY, and you're blind to what's in front of your face!

L training is an unfounded religious disorder, spouting constant nonsense and blind to reality.

J.R. wrote:

See what I mean! You asked me a question, which I answered EXACTLY, and you're blind to what's in front of your face!

L training is an unfounded religious disorder, spouting constant nonsense and blind to reality.

You are not educated well enough to be critical of other people in this field of knowledge.

You should take you teenage angst and go hang out with other teenagers.

gypsy wrote:

You are not educated well enough to be critical of other people in this field of knowledge.

Actually I am highly educated, quite intelligent, and know how to spell my own name.

I know that L did not invent Gershler, did not show Hans Kolehmainen how to run, and I know the difference between repetition running and interval training, well defined in the 1930's, long before the L-clones came along with their revisionist histories - which keep being applied to the FUTURE as well!

rekrunner wrote:

Canova talks about something new, after you've matured "aerobically", when it's time to increase the volume AND the intensity of the aerobic running. This seems like an important departure from Lydiard, that Canova claims brings his athletes to the next level.

Hi again rekrunner,

I only have one question at the moment.

How many years does Canova say is required to reach this 'aerobic maturity'? I realise it will vary but for these Kenyan's i think i heard him refer to 3 years.

If you are selling Lydiard Books, what is your Price right now ?? .. seems to me with your opinion .. they are not worth the paper they are written on. I am particularly interested in the Halberg book.

Round the World wrote:

If you are selling Lydiard Books, what is your Price right now ?? .. seems to me with your opinion .. they are not worth the paper they are written on. I am particularly interested in the Halberg book.

I've not gotten an idea of prices yet and will check into that. The books are of no use to me, as I have been through them thoroughly. Halberg's was particularly interesting to me. I have two copies of Elliott's book but am keeping those, at least for now. The older I get, the less that I want to leave behind when I'm gone. In fact I have a bunch of running books that I want to get rid of.

I have been reading this thread and wanted to chime in that I had the blessing to spend some time with Lydiard in Huntsville, Texas, before his passing and whoever this Wetcoast is destroying his legacy. Lydiard was confident but not obnoxious in his training principles. He also understood there were many ways to skin a cat and referred to Igloi quite a bit in our conversations.

Not only that but while working with Peter Snell at the Cooper Institute in Dallas, I would say take some time and interview his pupil for some more complete thoughts on where Lydiard could have improved and how Snell did his own "secret training" to become a World Champion.

Every coach is flawed, including Lydiard and Canova. However, I continue to state, Lydiard is like Einstein, a genius, but his methods will be disproven as times continue to drop.

Well this thread went to hell real fast.

Industree wrote:

I have been reading this thread and wanted to chime in that I had the blessing to spend some time with Lydiard in Huntsville, Texas, before his passing and whoever this Wetcoast is destroying his legacy. Lydiard was confident but not obnoxious in his training principles. He also understood there were many ways to skin a cat and referred to Igloi quite a bit in our conversations.

Not only that but while working with Peter Snell at the Cooper Institute in Dallas, I would say take some time and interview his pupil for some more complete thoughts on where Lydiard could have improved and how Snell did his own "secret training" to become a World Champion.

Every coach is flawed, including Lydiard and Canova. However, I continue to state, Lydiard is like Einstein, a genius, but his methods will be disproven as times continue to drop.

what "secret training"?