I am an idiot: Next year I will have three kids at expensive private colleges in non-technical majors

Just going to be honest wrote:

I can vouch and say 150k a year is not a lot. My family is lower middle class and that is what my father makes.

Wrong. At 150k you are in the top four percent of American households. That's not lower middle class. The median household salary in 50k.

This post actually makes me angry. Your ignorance is breathtaking. Do some reading:

and please spare me "the college experience" line. You can get drunk and laid on your own dime a hellava lot cheaper than what you are costing taxpayers and parents and yourself.

and you can find books that will tell you that all that is good is really - how bad captialism is, how bad America is, how bad Christianity is and how bad Western Civilization is without having to run up 200K in debt to be brainwashed by some insulated college prof living in fantasyland

Also, spare me the "an education is priceless line". What is the point in going to college if you failed to master the basics in high school which 50% of college attendees failed to do anyway.

I'll kill two birds with one stone on this post. The OP asked my degree, how the PhD was paid for, and what I do now. This turd I am quoting below seems to think a student doesn't need to spend much (if any) money to learn things in English, for instance.1. I did get my PhD pretty well covered, but I busted my arse in my BA and MA work so I could get to that point. I worked 40 or so hours a week during XC season, more in the spring since we didn't have a track team. I rarely went out drinking and did a lot of the free stuff offered to students on campus (sports events, theatre, lectures, etc.), never had cable or internet in my apartment as I could get both on campus for free. I took out some loans to cover my living costs, but I never would have dreamed of asking my parents to cover these costs. Why would I? If a kid leaves home to go right into the work force, would he/she expect mom and dad to pay their bills? If so, that's pretty effing sad. (And, yes, I use the word effing.)2. To the turd who think you can learn Enlgish by watching Sesame Street or School House Rocks, I deal with people everyday who can't write a coherent sentence. Yes, I teach English, often dealing with basic composition courses. Believe it or not, people DO have to learn how to write well. You are an idiot if you think otherwise.

To Anexed: Please remember that, for quite a few people, the "in state school" may not be the lowest-cost school.

Many private schools, with large endowments and under pressure to stop burdening graduates with heavy debt, are offering significant financial-aid packages and are limiting total loan amounts to a percentage of parental income. The end result is that, if you can get into one of the Ivy's or many of the Patriot League schools, etc you may find that the total cost to attend may be less than going to an "in-state" school.

If your point was to focus on a less-expensive total-cost-to-attend approach, I agree with you completely. If you want to be an engineer, nurse, teacher, etc there is absolutely no benefit to paying $50k when you can pay $20k or less for the same degree. The exception to this, as I mentioned above, is if you are absolutely convinced you want to work on Wall Street. For those few HS kids that know they want to go this route, it is very difficult to get there going to a state school; most finance / VC / private equity firms, etc will not look at your resume unless you are a graduate of an Ivy or an equivalent (= often the same school where their principals graduated from)...so "getting in" usually requires a high-end undergraduate degree and/or an MBA from a top-ranked B school.

your mistake was telling your kids that you would pay for them. my parents do not pay for me to go to college, so i really had not much of a choice. i attend my state school, where prices are still unacceptably high ($25,000 a year, in-state) and am currently paying my own way through school. the fact is however, you can get just as good an education at a state school as you can at most expensive private schools. i was a good high school student (3.9 GPA) and got some academic scholarships ($9,000/yr) and a very small athletic scholarship ($1,000/yr). worked part-time all through high school and full time in the summers, saving all that money i made, and i currently work almost full time while in college now. i have now saved enough money that i can actually graduate, on my own, without parents help, with zero debt. its do-able. you just have to work hard and be smart. make your kids get jobs. dont let your kids buy expensive cars in high school, they dont need them. dont let them waste it on video games, drugs, or whatever else. i see kids blowing money like crazy in college and then complaining about their debt. its all about being smart with money.

[quote]Financially Prudent Father wrote:

To Anexed: Please remember that, for quite a few people, the "in state school" may not be the lowest-cost school.

Many private schools, with large endowments and under pressure to stop burdening graduates with heavy debt, are offering significant financial-aid packages and are limiting total loan amounts to a percentage of parental income. The end result is that, if you can get into one of the Ivy's or many of the Patriot League schools, etc you may find that the total cost to attend may be less than going to an "in-state" school.

If your point was to focus on a less-expensive total-cost-to-attend approach, I agree with you completely. If you want to be an engineer, nurse, teacher, etc there is absolutely no benefit to paying $50k when you can pay $20k or less for the same degree. The exception to this, as I mentioned above, is if you are absolutely convinced you want to work on Wall Street. For those few HS kids that know they want to go this route, it is very difficult to get there going to a state school; most finance / VC / private equity firms, etc will not look at your resume unless you are a graduate of an Ivy or an equivalent (= often the same school where their principals graduated from)...so "getting in" usually requires a high-end undergraduate degree and/or an MBA from a top-ranked B school.[/quote

You make two very good points. I didn't realize there were private schools cheaper than in-state state schools.

I also believe you are correct about the wall street route. However, that too is becoming another worthless dead end route. With the shutdown of domestic drilling the economy is being crushed by skyrockting energy prices and food prices which has resulted in the Lost Decade for Wall Street and now that decade is stretching out to 13 years. Most people would have been better off putting their money under a mattress the past 13 years. Wall street is laying off by the tens of thousands.

ScottEvil wrote:

Just going to be honest wrote:

I can vouch and say 150k a year is not a lot. My family is lower middle class and that is what my father makes.

Wrong. At 150k you are in the top four percent of American households. That's not lower middle class. The median household salary in 50k.

This post actually makes me angry. Your ignorance is breathtaking. Do some reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I have to interject here. First of all, the OP said that he is in the Northeast, not Bumblefck Nebraska so there is going to be a major difference there in both cost of living and how a typical household raises their kids. If you are going to average all those small ass-backwards towns into the mix then yeah it is going to bring the average down. Second of all he has FOUR KIDS! The average household has what, 2? Lastly, he has 3 kids in Private College where your average household is probably lucky if their 2 "average" kids graduate from high school and don't become meth-heads.

To defend the other poster, lower-middle class can be very different in 2 regions...

To Anexed: For the most part you are right in that state schools are lower-cost than private schools but there are the exceptions that I mentioned and they are worth investigating if your child can get into the better private schools (when we looked, many of the lower-cost privates were academically inferior to the state schools anyway). Additionally, if you have a child who runs and they want you, many private schools will find a way to structure a very-attractive financial aid package which may make the private school less-than-or-equal to the cost of the state school.

Another very viable approach to reducing overall college cost(s) is the 2-year-community-college-and-transfer-to-the-4-year-school concept. Here in NY we have programs with several very-low cost community colleges and 100% of the credits transfer to RPI (private school) and several other private schools. You still graduate in 4 years, with the private school degree, and the total (college) cost is reduced dramatically.

As to Wall Street, it may not be what it was but believe me they are not hurting too badly. In 2010, Wall Street bonuses were the highest ever and they will be even higher based on 2011. The week that bonuses are given out you will, again, not be able to buy a Ferrari in NYC (they will all be scooped up)....Wall St. is alive and well.

The Lost Decade is, unfortunately, what we investors see when looking at our 401k's. Our portfolio's today are often valued at what they were 10+ years ago so we've lost a decade worth of gains. That is very difficult for many and especially those in or close to retirement who have little or no time to recoup their losses. I'm 53 and I still hope to work for another 10-15 years so I'm hopeful my porfolio will rebound...I'll keep working hard, investing / saving as much as I can, keep my fingers crossed that the European crisis doesn't cause another recesssion here, keep my hopes up!

In any event, I realize that these college decisions are not easy for parents and I know we tried to rationalize this ourselves (as parents) and with our kids. In the end, thank goodness it worked. It wasn't easy, but you find a way.

I don't get the OP's complaint. Why did you not have a conversation with your kids about what they could reasonably expect from you regarding college?

During my senior year of high school, my mom (as my handle indicates, my dad wasn't in the picture and my mom was raising me and two younger siblings on a teacher's salary) sat me down and said, basically "Ok, you're going to college. That's a given. I can't pay for everything, though, so above and beyond _______ you're going to have to figure things out."

I ended up a pretty expensive private school with a grant sufficiently large enough to make the school less expensive than state school. I'm on the hook for about 35k now, which I'm on track to pay off early.

Yes, if I could go back in time, I might pick a more "secure" major. It was tough for about six months after I graduated. I had to work a couple of crappy part time jobs to make ends meet, and my entry-level job was boring and monotonous (and low-paying). I'm moving up and making more money now. I'm not going to be a millionaire at this rate, but I'm comfy and by the time I start a family I'll be even better off.

My point, I guess, is twofold. The first is that I never expected my mother to throw tons of money at my education because she told me ahead of time what she could afford to do. The fact that my 18th birthday present wasn't a hug and a swift kick out the door was pretty generous, given that my mom had two other kids and was making it work on about 50k a year. Why didn't the OP tell his kids what he was willing/able to pay?

The second point is that a liberal arts degree is hardly a ticket to the poor house. Market your real skills, not just your degree (for example: I have a small gift for explaining technical stuff to non-technical people very well. No one wanted to give me 80k a year to do that right out of school, but it got my foot in the door and set me apart from my colleagues in my initial slave-wages job). Work hard and keep learning stuff and things will probably turn out fine.

CAP THE GUSHER.

I know that I could see this difficulty in the '70s. Gotta have better foresight & don't have cildren that you cannot afford. Stop paying for the illegals free and reduced education too. Education has been a big business for a long time.

The College Conspiracy:

Amazing documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

To Michael Arnstein: I'm sure you've seen the bumper sticker: If you think college is expensive, try ignorance.

You can call college whatever you'd like. For our children it has meant continued personal growth, expanded horizons (diversity, traveled internationally while going to school, etc), and further developing skill-sets that have allowed them to obtain good jobs (with benefits) that are enjoyable, challenging and allow them to add value to their employers, and provides them with the coin to do things we were not able to provide as parents. Could they have done all of this without college? Perhaps, but highly unlikely (not easy to be hired as an engineer when you didn't go to college).

Could they have made more money being an electrician or carpenter? Perhaps, but I think it's clear that college graduates, on average, have higher incomes than non-college graduates. (That being said, I know plenty of people without college degrees that make much more than I do).

Is there a price to pay for all of this? Yes, but we saved to allow our children to attend good colleges, neither we nor they took out loans to allow this to happen, and we consider it a good investment. Sure, we could have spent the money on a new cars (we're both 53 and have never owned a new car) or a 50' boat, but that was never important to us....having well-educated children who have the foundation (= skills and education) to do well for themselves, if they work hard, was far more important to us. Of course, we could have written checks to each child for the amount we saved / spent on their college education(s) but, for all we know, they could have gotten upset with us one weekend and spent it on a new Camaro while inviting 50 friends on an all-expense paid trip to Belize. I think our decision to spend the money on a college education was a bit better....although diving in Belize does sound good right about now!

College may be considered a conspiracy by some, but I think we'd agree that education is the currency we're playing with in this global game. We can either get in the game (get an education and compete) or standby watching and wishing it was wasn't this way. I don't know about you, but I prefer the former.

I think maybe 75% of kids at college should not be there ie universities/colleges should shrink by that amount. Its reduced to a job-training mill so companies should pay by apprenticeships - and they get nearly free labor too!

I've just read YET ANOTHER article about company recruiters whining that they have skilled positions open but no-one to fill them even in high unemployment. Helloo? Create your own long-term employees...

To Bean There: I agree that many kids are not ready for college when they graduate from HS; we had a son that was not ready and, after 2 years of declining grades, we finally gave him an "involuntary withdrawl". He spent 2 years working 80 hours a week of hard labor @ $9 / hr in order to pay his rent / bills and decided he better back to school. He's a little older / wiser now and I think he'll take school a little more seriously. If you have a child who may not be ready for college there are, of course, several options...taking a couple of years off to work / figure out what you want to do, go to a community college while thinking about options, the military, etc.

Some companies do pay for "apprenticeships"; our company hires summer (engineering) interns and pays them well. This gives the intern a chance to earn decent money, the intern learns what the engineering field is all about, and it also gives us (the company) a chance to "interview" the student over a 3 month time-frame to decide whether we want to make them a full-time offer, upon graduation, or not. This works well for everyone and I think is a valuable program.

I am not sure what type of "skilled positions" you are finding that cannot be filled; in many regions there are so many people looking for work today that, depending on the position, you can often find 10 resume's for every open position. One area I know of where they clearly cannot find "skilled workers" are local machine shops. They are looking for skilled machinests that can run CNC machines, etc and there are not enough kids going to trade schools to learn these skills. The company is now offering to hire kids and pay their way through trade / vocational school at night...also a good idea.

Destined for Destitution wrote:

All my kids work jobs and are responsible for their own spending money and paying us about 5k a year towards their education. I am happy with what I make. But I will say this again: 150k is not as much as you think once you subtract your obligations, and raising 4 kids through the college years has significant obligations. It's not what you make, but what you have at the end of the day that matters. Money I need to save so when I'm 85 I'm still financially independent and don't have to ask my kids for help.

You say you want the best for your kids....since when did paying the most guarantee you were getting the best? You're saying there were not more reasonably-priced public schools of equal or greater quality? BULL.

You missed a great opportunity to teach your kids the meaning of the word "value". You let them go to hella-expensive schools for degrees that will be lucky to even get them a job, and probably one that could not even justify the expense of earning it. My friend, that is just plain stupid financial thinking.

Start with the major, expected income, and determine how expensive of a school is justified. If they're going to make $25K teaching school when they get out, forget these $40K/yr private schools. Send them to a cheap state school, they will be just as well prepared at a fraction of the price.

My parents had little to no money to help me with undergrad so I picked the cheapest state school that had a reputable program in my degree ($8000/yr TOTAL expenses, mid-90s timeframe). My first grad program was free plus paid a $17-25K/yr stipend. My second graduate degree put me and my new wife about $60K in the hole, but it more than doubled my immediate starting salary which had nearly doubled again in six years. So despite its cost it was a good value.

I never cease to be surprised with how poorly people thing through the whole college thing. Sure, you shouldn't be telling your kids what to do but dumping tens of thousands of dollars into a black hole degree is not doing them any favors.

Great point. Told my kids from the time they were little I'd pay for them to attend the best school they could get into, which motivated them to aim high. Both attend top tier LACs. One is a genius (2350 SAT, 800 math, 790 verbal), the other as accomplished academically but a gifted artist majoring in, what else, art. Both are motivated, hardworking, and grateful that their mom and I are paying the freight even though it is costing us a bundle at $120K a year all in.

I was fortunate to attend one of the very best private universities on an athletic scholarship. Having 4 years with no monetary worries to focus on school and sport was and is a priceless gift. It saddens me to see that our collective economic fortunes have made this important transition phase to adulthood such a stripped down, utilitarian undertaking. Career considerations notwithstanding, a large part of the value of higher education is that it can give you the tools to a more enjoyable life, regardless of how much money you end up making.

I second your final point. You'd laugh if I told you what I ended up majoring in (Classics). Doesn't seem to have harmed me any as I now make in excess of $250K/yr on the strength of my writing, thinking, and decision-making skills.

realiity wrote:

First of all, the OP said that he is in the Northeast, not Bumblefck Nebraska so there is going to be a major difference there in both cost of living and how a typical household raises their kids. If you are going to average all those small ass-backwards towns into the mix then yeah it is going to bring the average down. Second of all he has FOUR KIDS! The average household has what, 2? Lastly, he has 3 kids in Private College where your average household is probably lucky if their 2 "average" kids graduate from high school and don't become meth-heads.

To defend the other poster, lower-middle class can be very different in 2 regions...

I agree that costs of living should be taken into account. However "Just Going to Be Honest" is not the OP, and he/she thinks that 150k makes his family lower middle class. That's deluded beyond belief. That's above median income everywhere in the United States

. JGtBH needs to grow up and see real poverty. The OP's point about money not going that far for a family of 6 in MC, however, I'm down with.

There's been a few points on this thread which are really interesting. The first is how joining the old boys schools leads you to old boys jobs like Wall St. I'd say to that, yes and no; it matters a lot for your first job, but in a lot of the higher income tracks, it's graduate school that matters (law in particular). Then, your alma mater matters a little, but a valedictorian with a 180 lsat at SUNY buffalo will be better off than 3.0 165 at Yale. The second is that parents will pay for certain majors and not others. This is an overconfident prediction, with way too small an uncertainty bar, about the relationship between major and economic outcomes. You want your kid to make money, tell them to get good grades early on, take a few math classes here and there, and go into consulting. McKinsey, BCG Bain, don't care what you majored in. They care how you think and communicate, and it is here that the liberal arts degrees shine.

business majors, on average, study the fewest hours, FWIW.

way too much text for me to read, but here's my 2 cents.

I went to an Ivy for undergrad (parents paid 100%) , then big state school for an MBA (I paid 100%).

Without question, the Ivy was a better educational environment. Teachers were better, students were better, attitudes were better. 1/3 of the MBA students at big state school could barely speak English (they were Chinese), so they were basically not part of the school.

So I learned more and better at the Ivy. But I have to say it made no career/$$ sense for my parents to pay so much - I was unemployable coming out and had to work retail for years to make myself valuable to someone.

It all worked out well, but $50k a year for private is a lot to pay for an 18 year old's education - probably not worth it.

We make about that ($150K) and I can tell you that it's B.S. if you think that's rich. First of all, the top end is taxed at around 45% state/federal. It's almost not worth doing the second job. Might be better off to bring the income down to $75K where you can keep most of it and relax more. I save some money every month, but only because I don't go out, drive an older model car, rent my house, and whatever else it takes. I have a technical and advanced technical degrees from a state school that I paid for (not my parents) and I will not be paying for my kids private school or any of those other worthless degrees that guarantee you nothing after you graduate. Maybe I will pay for state school and only if the major is real. Non of those BS liberal arts, political science, history, etc. degrees.

I practically puke whenever I see a family member wasting their time and parents money on a worthless degree. Better off working at Taco Bell or Walmart and dealing with life right away rather than get the cold slap of reality 5 years later with all of those expenses racked up.