Wow. I go to work and this thread goes on a tangent about elites stealing race prizes from locals.
Back to my original assertion ... running a 6:40 pace for 50 miles in a race with 5000 feet of elevation gain is mind-boggling. Whether he cherry picked the race, won a $50 raffle prize, or had less than world class competition does not detract from the fact that this guy has freak-like running skills.
Let's try this again, personal opinions aside:
Wardian has really found his stroke with the 50 mile distance and ultras in general. Incredible run...look at the course profile.
Especially since he ran back 2:2x, 2:3x marathons last week. Everything else aside, he is kind of unique.
common wrote:
I appreciate the respectful disagreement and the examples that counter my points. Like I said, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion about the guy personally. It may have more to do with his sponsor, MarathonGuide.com, than it does with his own choices.
I'm just saying, it has a negative effect in terms of the impact on the running community when someone who is unknown comes in from 1000 miles away to win a race in an uncompetitive fashion. This isn't Wardian specifically, but an example is someone soliciting the organizer of a marathon with a $1500 first prize for travel, room, and expenses, getting "invited", and winning by 16 minutes. That person leaves, and literally, within a day, nobody is talking about the race. Sixteen minutes later, an actual race takes place between three runners from the city the race is being held in and from one state away. Completely ignored by the media, and nobody hears about it or cares.
Conversely, same race, several years prior. Organizer is not interested in or prepared to pay travel, etc. to a name runner like Wardian. The field is largely local and somewhat regional. A great race with a close, dramatic finish takes place, local runner wins in course record time. Media goes crazy. That runner is on radio and TV (locally) for a week after the race, etc., and people still talk to that runner about the race years later, where they were when it happened, and their memories about it like it was the goddamn Kennedy assassination.
So, there is a kind of blowback to the local running scene that can happen in either case. It's not right or wrong, it's just what happens. I see other people stepping up and aspiring to do what Wardian does (or did, in destroying uncompetitive fields), and I strongly disagree with it, because I've seen how it can take a lot of positive things away from an event and a community.
Yes, there are examples of Wardian and racers like him running at races with no prize money, but how do you know the costs aren't covered by a sponsor, or the race director? It has to make economic sense for them to fly or drive across the country to run a race, so the money for that is coming from somewhere. I strongly, strongly doubt it is coming out of pocket, given he has a family to support.
Anyone can race anywhere they want, but those choices have effects. I don't like the effects I've seen caused by people who make the choice to race often in locations far away from their homes, taking resources and attention away from the communities that support those events. Don't throw a hissy if you disagree. It's just my opinion.
At the end of the day, Wardian is fast, but he's not unbeatable. Just train harder for a few years, start beating him when he shows up to your town, and stop complaining. If there's nobody in your local running scene that can beat him in a 5K, your local scene sucks. He's a fast guy at longer distances, but most of his racing is 5k/10k, which he is considerably slower at, and I've never been part of running scene that didn't have at least several guys capable of beating him those shorter distances. Man up or shut up.
Wardian just loves beating guys like Mackey and then coming back and handling big L's to all the G'Town Running Club Elite. It's priceless.
Wardian does things that no one else can and to answer to himself if he can.
Amazing talent.
The talk about "cherry-picking" races got me to wondering what kind of prize money was on the line for this particular race. $750 for first as it turns out, but only because it's the USATF 50 mile road championship. If someone pointed that out earlier, I missed it. In the context of a national championship race, the notion of displacing local runners kind of falls apart.
Partially I'm equating Chicago with, I don't know, Richmond or Vermont or something. Partially not. Races that give money are somewhat comparable though obviously there are real differences as well.
If I live in California and find a job I want in Virginia should I not apply because if I get it I'm taking it away from a local? What distinguishes a race that people from beyond the locale should enter from one they shouldn't? It's entirely possible that some local runner may see that someone like Wardian or some B level Kenyan has entered a local race and decided not to run because there's little chance of winning prize money. But I think it's equally possible that the same runner, assuming he's fairly good, will decide that this is a serious race with some good competition and be more attracted to it.
In any case, if the RD is offering a decent prize he's likely hoping to make his local race a bit more prestigious and attracting runners from beyond the county line or whatever will add prestige. But if the RD wants to look after locals he can always scale down the amounts at the top or add a prize for the first finisher from the town, county, metro area, etc. The New York Marathon used to have, and still may, a pretty decent prize for the first finisher from the metro area.
You may not have a grudge against Wardian but I can see where people think you do. Even if you're completely correct here about the business of discouraging local runners, it's really a systemic problem. But you don't say "I'm not a fan of the system we have." You say that you aren't a fan of Wardian.
better than socks wrote:
Michael is awesome.
Just so you know....ultrarunners tend to avoid races that are USATF "Championship" races. Most good ultra guys never race them. The USATF is a joke and for track nerds. Good for Wardian but he did not race anyone super legit.
"Super Legit" ... wow, um yeh, Todd Braje and Mark Godale. Michael Arnstein. Todd held the course record until Mike broke it.
HRE wrote:
Even if you're completely correct here about the business of discouraging local runners, it's really a systemic problem. But you don't say "I'm not a fan of the system we have." You say that you aren't a fan of Wardian.
maybe it's b/c he's using that sytematic problem for his advantage instead of trying to make it better. Some people will commend MW for doing so, some won't. hence this thread's whine-fest of fervent MW supporters who try endlessly to convince 1 guy to think as they do... It's okay for MW to not be liked by everyone at all times. Allow one guy to have his opinions, express yours, agree-to-disagree and move on like adults.
common wrote:
Let's Run: where racism is totally unintentional and wet dreams are reality
Rather ironic that the guy holding the "Keep Kenyan Negros out of my local race" sign, is the one playing the racism card.
herd wrote:
HRE wrote:Even if you're completely correct here about the business of discouraging local runners, it's really a systemic problem. But you don't say "I'm not a fan of the system we have." You say that you aren't a fan of Wardian.
maybe it's b/c he's using that sytematic problem for his advantage instead of trying to make it better. Some people will commend MW for doing so, some won't. hence this thread's whine-fest of fervent MW supporters who try endlessly to convince 1 guy to think as they do... It's okay for MW to not be liked by everyone at all times. Allow one guy to have his opinions, express yours, agree-to-disagree and move on like adults.
I wouldn't consider myself a "fervent MW supporter" - I've never met the guy.
What I'm objecting to are the posts by common, somewhat typical of Letsrun, which inject a *completely unnecessary* negativity onto a totally positive topic - Michael Wardian's wonderful running and his recent victory.
There's a child dying of starvation somewhere in Africa right now. That's terrible. But it would be very boring if at every single celebration on this site (or elsewhere in life) I piped up to talk about starving children.
As for MW using a systemic problem "for his advantage," maybe you should study up on the guy's race schedule before you comment.
herd, this is kind of how I tried to direct the conversation, rather than making it some kind of personal vendetta against Michael Wardian, which it isn't. I've never met him, never raced him, etc. I only know about him from magazines and newspapers. I've associated him with all of the other opportunistic road racers because, well, he races a $hit ton of races every year that offer prize money. That's the definition of "road whore" whether you're comfortable with the label or not. We don't seem to have a problem applying that label to the C-level Kenyans that show up to any race that offers more than a $20 bill to the winner, so I don't know why everyone bristles at applying it to someone who races twice as much as the Kenyans.
HRE made an important distinction that I never put together myself; it is the system as much as it is the athlete. It's not Wardian that I have a problem with, it's anyone who enables these athletes, and the athlete who races a 6-8-10 marathons a year in the 2:20s (men) or 2:40s (women) and has to fly to the races because they're too far from their homes to drive to. Doug Kurtis, Mary Akor, and Michael Wardian are all individual examples of athletes, and MarathonGuide.com is a specific example of a sponsor which creates and enables these situations. Once again, for the idiots who can't understand, I'll be clear: it is my opinion that this is bad for small-market marathons. These athletes and their sponsors are free to do what they want, but haters gonna hate.
the real world wrote:
As for MW using a systemic problem "for his advantage," maybe you should study up on the guy's race schedule before you comment.
I didn't imply that "for his advantage" was malicious in nature, but he does recieve benefits. He gets sponsorship $, prize $, comp'd entries, travel expenses, etc. He gets something for his effort.
Being a Northern VA native and avid runner, in addition to one who has run at least decently fast (31:50 for 10k), I've met MW and I like the guy. All I was doing was addressing the fact that though common may have more of an issue with the problem (as per HRE's post) rather than MW himself, ITS OKAY for MW to not be liked by every single person on earth, ITS OKAY for one guy to have whatever opinions he wants, and ITS OKAY for those who do like MW to accept that, realize that not everyone can/will/wants to have their mind changed, and move on
That post I can somewhat agree with. But then we are back to the same argument you get about "American Only" prize money. Does it encourage by giving some way for individuals to succeed and continue, or does it hurt by taking away the ultimate need to excel at the highest level.
Assuming we agree that the issue isn't with Wardian, who would you blame more, sponsors who support and pay his way at times in return for his endorsement or RD's who invite/comp/pay appearance fees to him in an effort to help their event.
herd wrote:
ITS OKAY for MW to not be liked by every single person on earth, ITS OKAY for one guy to have whatever opinions he wants, and ITS OKAY for those who do like MW to accept that, realize that not everyone can/will/wants to have their mind changed, and move on
YOU SHUT YER MOUTH WHEN YOU'RE TALKIN' TO ME HURRRR DURRRR!! THE HIVE MIND OF LETSRUN WILL TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK UNTIL YOU'VE GIVEN UP OR ASSIMILATED. WE LOVE MIKE WARDIAN BUT WE HATE RYAN HALL BUT WE LOVE RACISM AND WE HATE WOMEN AND WE LOVE HYPOCRISY AND WE HATE THE MIRROR BECAUSE WHAT WE SEE LOOKING BACK AT US IS US IS US IS US IS US
Thank you to those who have had the fairness of mind and the decency to make this a discussion rather than a lecture.
Combover wrote:
[quote]Agree wrote:
No, I'm not "common". Just another runner dude. Who knows why he isn't official and runs bandit? That's just how it is. He's been doing it at that race for a good 4-5 years. Never entered. Just runs to show everybody up. The race calls him their "Special Friend" and puts his picture with a big bio in the entry brochure. If he want's to go through the chute, enter the race like everybody else.
.
Want's??
VF Runner wrote:
Assuming we agree that the issue isn't with Wardian, who would you blame more, sponsors who support and pay his way at times in return for his endorsement or RD's who invite/comp/pay appearance fees to him in an effort to help their event.
We do agree. Like I have said many times in this thread, it's not personal with Wardian. I would blame the enablers more than the athlete, just the same way I would blame the commanders of an invading army, or the CEO of a exploitative corporation. MarathonGuide.com is actively soliciting RDs to get their sponsored athletes into these small market races. I don't know who pays what, but a good number of these RDs seem to think it's a beneficial arrangement.
Beyond the few athletes that are sponsored, there are multitudes of foreign runners looking for prize money, paid travel, lodging and food expenses, spiffs for sweeping top places, bonuses for hitting times, more bonuses for course records, etc. These athletes and their "coaches" promise and beg and plead and negotiate for every penny they can get from a race director. RDs believe they are helping their race by getting a fast field, a fast course record, etc., but I feel it's an expensive way to build a cheap reputation. I say reserve those funds and put them toward developing local talent, whose success can benefit the race in return.
If your opinion had any factual basis, people would take you more seriously. "This is bad for small-market marathons"? Give a concrete example of that happening. Just one.
Wardian is not a "road whore" who seeks easy prize money. That's been made clear. So your objection is that he flies around running races instead of driving around running races? Somehow, the three people you named that are running tons of out-of-state races are ruining local running communities wherever the go. How you determine that, who knows.
Is Vermont hitting the skids because Wardian flies up from DC every year? Are traditional small-town road races stopping because too many Kenyans are showing up and scaring off the locals?
Dean, I've appreciated your posts throughout the thread. I can't back up my subjective opinions with hard data any more than you can refute them with hard data. This is a debate that has been going on for many years, and one that will continue for many more.
I've given you two very specific, first hand, true examples, neither of which have anything to do with Mr. Wardian. You'll have to make of those anecdotes what you will. There are many other reports, forum thread, opinions, etc. about road whoring as well, and, again, you'll have to believe/ignore/dismiss them as you see fit. Road whoring happens, and I don't like it. That's the TL;DR of the thread.
From the Vermont City Marathon:
"Fortunately, the success and growth of our premier event has led to the development of other services for the running community. You can join us to run for fun, learn more about endurance running and marathons, participate in low key races like the Half Unplugged or engage our services to support your own local race. We will also engage your children in any one of our Youth programs, so they can discover the joys of our sport at an early age. "
Wardian strikes again.