EKU X-C roster is 65% foreign

HRE,

Agree completely.

Keep in mind here the EKU finished 4th at prenats, tying Florida State on points and finished ahead on a tie breaker.

They are presently ranked by USTFCCCA ahead of:

Florida State

Michigan

UCLA

Washington State

Oregon

Coaches are hired to WIN MEETS, not teach preschool. Why recruit in Iten or Eldoret? Because it works. People here don't like it because they don't want to face up to the international competition level. They want to sit on letsrun with their sense of entitlement and blame "bad coaches" or "drugs" for their lack of championship results and international medals. As with adult workers in China, there are plenty of Kenyans, French, Dutch, and Kiwis (check EKU's roster--the international athletes are not all Kenyans) willing to take their place.

Bottom line is that it appears that either a Canadian or a Kenyan will win BOTH US individual D1 XC Championships.

After frequenting this board for some time now and noticing the type of things "Silly Old Fossil" comments on and the stances he takes, here is what I have been able to gather about him.

He is a long time high school or youth coach. He is very set in his ways and unswayed by logic when a better way is shown. He beleives he is always 100% right even when proven wrong. Does not understand the first thing about physiology but thinks he knows all he needs to know. He will mad mouth others anonymously by name but will never reveal his own name. He holds biases and allegiances but doesn't really understand why or at least will not admit to why. Anything or one who bucks the system he is apart of (or was apart of) is the enemy and nothing they ever do will be right in his eyes. It's his way or the high way.

The saddest and scariest thing is his outdated and scary beliefs and misconception and misunderstandings about the sport are being imparted on the young men and women he is coaching (or did coach as he may be retired). He is proud of the title he has given himself of Silly Old Fossil but in reality it fits better than he ever will realize.

No sense arguing with the man or pointing out where he is wrong. Best thing to do is ignore him as he is irrelevant and has been for some time now. Something he knows and deep down it eats at him.

But not to worry, as technology keeps changing he will fall behind and soon not know how to get his misconceptions, biases and anger out to the world effectively. Then he will just sit at home or in a retirment home a bitter old man who tells stories and complains about how them young kids got it all wrong. In his stories he athletes he coached will have won national titles when in reality it was county or conference titles.

Sad but true and maybe, just maybe, deep down he already knows this but is too set in his ways to do anything about it.

Where is the inherent fairness in that?

Have you never seen the Lion King? Life's not fair, I should have been king!

So what's a reasonable (fair & equitable) number?

12%; 35%, 65%, 100%?

Is there any such thing as excessive?

Is a 100% foreign ROSTER (not just the travel squad)...is that excessive?

some crazy runner guy wrote:

They call it the NCAA because it is the national COLLEGIATE athletic association. No where in there does it say American. I got news bro colleges are filled with foreign students from all countries on earth. Its one of the last things that makes America the best in the world, our higher education. And those kids have just as much right to go out for the team as anyone else. Kids should learn that they have to compete against the whole world because guess what when they get out they will have to do the same thing in the business world. We as a country need to take this fact to heart and stop listening to silly old fossils who long for the days that never existed.

What does the N in NCAA stand for again?

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

So what's a reasonable (fair & equitable) number?

12%; 35%, 65%, 100%?

Is there any such thing as excessive?

Is a 100% foreign ROSTER (not just the travel squad)...is that excessive?

The reasonable number is whatever the coach thinks is best for the program (and by extension, whatever the sports administration thinks is best for the school.)

If they want to be 100% American, 100% Kenyan, or 100% Irish, or 100% Martian, then have at it. Do what they want - as long as they think they are putting the best team on the line.

Coaches are in the business of winning - that's what sport is about. Not crying and whining about opportunity - that's for the rec leagues. We have intramurals and club teams where kids can run if they want to.

All I gotta say is how did they get Ben Cheruiyot from Auburn and Peter Sigilai from Tennessee? makes you wonder doesnt it

illegal recruiting by Mr.Korrir.EKU has no compliace if they did they wpuld have know Joseph Maina was enrolled innuniversity in nairobi in 2002! but still came to EKU and competed for 5 years.

I'm pretty sure Ben graduated from Auburn. Maybe he wanted to use the rest of his eligibility on a team that doesn't suck so he went to EKU.

HRE,

Thanks for the post. I agree with you.

We can't shelter our kids until they finish college - and I think most high school runners of collegiate caliber look forward to running against Kenyans, Irishmen, Aussies and anyone else who is fast.

Face it, NCAA cross country is the "big leagues," so bring it on. The more Kenyans the better. It makes the races better and everyone runs better.

As many folks have noted, the "foreigner element" has been around a long time. UTEP's squad in the late 70's epitomized this, then Providence later, then Alabama. It is good for our sport.

As for only American born folks, in 1985, my junior year at the U.S. Naval Academy, we were seventh at NCAA's and our team was the first with all U.S. citizens. Did we cry about the teams that beat us being composed of foreigners? Not even one single comment was ever made about this.

I understand the concern about scholarships being gobbled up by foreign athletes and great U.S. talent being denied such scholarships, but I find this concern meritless. No one has a right to a scholarship.

HRE,

I completely agree with you and most of the others but as I continue to read posts there are a couple of points that do stand out that were made from some folks:

1-should scholarship money always be distributed from the fastest down to the slowest, vs providing foreigners more money (not always the case but often it is) even if they are not competing at the level of some of the americans on the team? 2-Every time I watch the world champs or olympics there will always be the same comments made, "when will anyone be able to compete with the africans?" As stated earlier by someone, the US collegiate system is really the only place to go ...the farm system before the pros ...even for most foreigners. If the NCAA is the farm system to get to the next level, are we hurting american distance running in the long run?

Some people want to think of the NCAA as a farm system but it's its own entity. If we have anything like a distance running farm system it would be programs like Hansens, Team Minnesota, ZAP, etc. That's where guys who are good but not good enough for a Nike deal or something similar go.

Personally, I think we hurt our distance runners by shielding them. I never got any money to run in college. I stunk but managed to work my way into the top 7 guys at my school when I was a sophomore. Even though we didin't give scholarships we did recruit. At the end of my sophomore year we supposedly had 3 guys coming in whose high school tmes suggested that they'd push me out of the 7 slot and as no one was graduating I was initially upset that our coach was bringing in these guys were going to take "my" spot.

Then I thought about how bogus that was. It was the coach's job to have the best team he could. If I was part of that, so be it, but it was MY problem.

So I ran 100 mile weeks all that summer and when I came back as a junior I was running times I'd never dreamed were possible for me and moved up to the 6 spot.

Bring in fast foreigners. They'll up the standard everywhere.

If it's the job of the coach to field the best team possible, why aren't NCAA baseball teams made up of Latin American players? Why aren't NCAA soccer teams made up of Brazilians, Africans, and Europeans? You've got a smattering of foreign-born players in each sport, but the vast majority of participants on each team are Americans. So why is it "normal" for a coach to field a team of seven Africans in an NCAA meet?

Those of you saying that coaches need to recruit the best team possible are probably the same ones who say college football players need to be paid in addition to their scholarships. Personally I think we should go back to a "club sport" mentality where a team exists because some people at the school want to participate in that sport, not shoehorning kids into a school because they happen to run fast or throw a ball well. The idea of recruiting for a college sport seems completely backwards to me. I guess that's why see so many foreign runners at schools like EKU and UTCC and other crap institutions. No one is going there for an education.

I know almost nothing about soccer, but baseball has an actual farm system. Latin players good enough for college scholarships generally will go there where they get a signing bonus and a salary. African runners who are good enough to make the pro circuit have largely stopped attending US colleges.

I too would scrap the whole scholarship system and simply have teams available for anyone interested and good enough but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

HRE wrote:

I know almost nothing about soccer, but baseball has an actual farm system. Latin players good enough for college scholarships generally will go there where they get a signing bonus and a salary. African runners who are good enough to make the pro circuit have largely stopped attending US colleges.

I too would scrap the whole scholarship system and simply have teams available for anyone interested and good enough but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

there are still a lot of very good Kenyans going through the US college system: Bernard Lagat, Sam Chelanga, Sally Kipyego, any of those names ring a bell

HRE didn't say "there are no good Kenyans going through the US college system."

He said "African runners who are good enough to make it on the pro circuit have largely stopped attending US colleges."

Silly Old Fossil- I think that as long as the coach doesn't forbid runners from the USA to join, the percentage of foreigners on his or her travel squad is a matter between the coach and the athletic director. I'm fine with a squad being anywhere from 0-120% foreign. . . but 121% would be UNACCEPTABLE.

Oh, and if they EVER wear their school uniforms after graduating. . . STRIP THEM OF THEIR DEGREE!

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

AGAIN. Name one foreign athlete on a books-only scholarship?

This is a silly point to make, as most European athletes have much more affordable options than paying into the expensive American university system. How many American 8:50 2-milers are on Books-Only (aside from Oregon, they do a good job getting top-notch recruits to pay top-dollar to run for them)?

The US does not have any sort of club option separate from education to develop athletes. Track and Field is a global sport, and the NCAA is not an American club system. If a 9:20 2-miler wants a scholarship, why not take a gap-year and train and work? This is probably a better option for a lot of kids who have no idea what they want to study at 17, plus you're making yourself more marketable.

The real question is what type of performance constitutes a D1 scholarship? Oregon claims 1:47/3:40...and they just don't give out full-rides. Every school has different standards.

clubsystem is right - it is because the US club system (prior to college graduation)is so poor that runners feel that they have no option but to go to college to develop as runners. The scholarship system isn't new however, just more in tune now (by more coaches)to getting faster athletes earlier - developed from club systems (predominantly) elsewhere (i.e. Canada, Britain, Australia, and Kenya, etc.)- than relying on US high school programs, that too often are about the team and NOT individual development, to provide them with that talent. Obviously there is not enough of that talent around, or NCAA coaches wouldn't want/need to look elsewhere. So the blame really is on the HS system for not having enough athletes get to a higher level before going to College. There are some excellent HS coaches around, tied into their school, but as so many threads claim there are also a lot of poor HS coaches. It has to start here if athletes want to step up to the NCAA level and compete. Look at what happened to Rupp and his development because his HS coach was Alberto Salazar. This relationship has continued throughout College into the Pro's and now he is the fastest American ever at 10000m. It is not an accident.

What SOF is getting at is what I've never been able to figure out: what's the return for EKU or anyone else of investing a full scholarship in a foreign runner? What good does it do the school? It's not going to bring in an additional student, or additional publicity, or any kind of revenue.

Yes, I know universities do lots of things that don't generate any return. But educating what for all intents and purposes is a random foreigner seems particularly capricious.

And yes, I have worked in college athletics and university administration. Just don't see the ROI.