To Hadd (or others with good input)

Not totally relevant to the discussion at hand, but I came across this quote of JK's on dkanderson's site(http://www.dkandersen.com). I have no idea how recently JK posted this on this forum, but those new to this site may care to read.

Tons of miles - even laughably slow ones - REALLY DO help your running. Many would-be runners in the U.S.A. dearly want to believe there are "courses for horses". Meanwhile, the Japanese marathoners follow ONE course: 250K+ weeks including super-slow "time on their feet" easy runs, very focused hard days, and sessions like 30K progression runs. And ... surprise! ... they have plenty more horses than we do. I checked a really deep world list a couple of years ago and saw that Japan had about NINETY (!) men under 29:00 for 10,000m. What the devil is up with the U.S. to not be able to match that? Now, this year IS one of our best ever at the 10. We've got 6 guys under 28:00 and 33 under 29:00, so we're doing much better than we were several years ago. But COME ON, Eileen! Our depth is still pitiful compared to the Japanese, and it's because most of us are still HAMMERING ourselves to the ground with intense anaerobic interval "training" in HS and college as opposed to patiently developing aerobic capacity by running more and more miles at relaxed to medium speeds. "But wait a minute, Kell-Dog, ..." I hear somebody say, "... these Japanese marathoners WERE hammering on their 2,000m repeats." True, but they're now training for races that are less than 2 months away, so this is a good time to push the pace envelope. Plus, what we the readers of this message board DON'T see is the training which LED UP to this current training. There was undoubtedly mega-amounts of that super-slow shuffling which has been just as important as the more directed efforts in the making of these elite marathoners. This is reminiscent of Frank Shorter's training, in which there was TONS of mileage with EXTREMELY slow easy days. Can't do 150 miles per week and keep it at your "normal" 6:40 pace? Then go 8:00 pace on days when you need to. Or why not 9:00 pace, at least at the beginning of a run? Think it won't do you any good? Think again. Some of the best runners in the world start at a WALKING pace and barely get any faster during many of their recovery runs. Yes, you need some scheduled faster running, and you can occasionally run hard spontaneously, but you MUST recover from that fast running and this recovery running often needs to be pretty durn SLOW if you're running very high mileage.

John Kellogg on the forum of LetsRun.com

Hadd, i greatly appreciate all of the advice that you have offered on this forum. I do feel bad asking you for help, but then again i would feel bad if i didnt ask you. I am an 18 year old senior with track prs of 203-800 432-1600, and 1010-3200. My main problem is that i also swim all winter, and have very little time for running from the months of November through february. I was wondering if you could offer me some advice, or training tips, so that i do not fall too far behind people who can run all winter. Thank you in advance

Some very quick replies, because I have to go abroad urgently (family illness) and I?m leaving this evening.

Van,

Lotsa ways to get some zip. Here?s a couple:

1. 25 laps continuous running of 200m fast(ish) and 200m jog recovery. Aim for just under 5k pace on the fast bits and 45-55 secs on the slow bits. DO NOT run 32s and 75s. Run this once or twice in the next two weeks for some pep.

2. 2 x (8 x 400m at 3-5k pace) with 100m jog recovery in around 30-40 secs. Jog 10 mins between sets. This is more work, but still fun, run it maybe only once, and then 200/200 above on another day.

3. Faster guys also like 150s quick (but not burn-up) with a 250m float recovery. Do 8-10 max.

You are not trying to add in some fitness on these, just get some nice friskiness, some bounce, in your legs on the startline, and not be heavy-legged. Do NOT hammer any of these.

Hi CBASS,

I wondered what had happened to you since that first post. You see what you started!?!

Yr training looks good (and the 5-miler). I think I would just amend it slightly to:

1 x per week 8-10 miles continuous at 155-160 HR as part of a 90-100 min run.

1 x per week 3 x 10-15 mins at 160-165 HR with 2-3 mins jog recovery (again within a longish run).

These always with 10 mins easy warm-up jog to start. And you should never be struggling at any time, or have to ease off.

All else as at present, but do run long and easy in the hills.

Try the 200/220 run (above) for some fun now and again. Gets the legs moving, especially in the last couple of weeks of base. Just don?t let the recovery turn into a slow slog (keeps the pace honest). Even pump a few hills but not to ball-bursting state.

Unlikely you would see HRmax in a 5-miler. But it cannot be much higher. The precise number is not important. It is enough to know it will hit 200.

Maurits,

Thanks for contributing from your experiences. It is one thing to offer advice, it is something else to hear it validated from a proven sub-2.20 guy. Thanks again.

Reggae Runner,

These are pretty good times off of no running base training. In fact, I can see that the quality is dropping off a little on the 3200, probably even worsen over 5-10k if you took part in them.

Swimming will do nada for your leg muscles (great on the arms and heart). You are going to have to substitute with some bike riding or those other dudes will get away from you every spring/summer. Better to do this in the gym, as on the roads you can spend a lot of time freewheeling downhill (depending on where you live). Try and go as long as poss, and expect to see a HR about 10-15 bpm lower than you would see on an easy run. So if easy run pace is 155 HR, expect to cycle somewhere around 140.

(Having said that, if you cannot find time to run, how will you find time to bike? Maybe you get snowed in for the winter?)

I expect to be away for about a week. Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this (long) thread with experiences/advice or just plain old thanks and appreciation.

See ya.

Hadd

Van told me about this discussion yesterday at the Turkey trot 5 miler. Some personal notes about the HRM: I used one religiously for 2 years (94-96) and recorded my PR's during that time period. I focused on aerobic training only and used races as my speedwork. I did strides on occasion. I used a formula developed by Dr. Phil Maffetone where you take 180 - age and add or subtract 5 beats according to ones health. Strangely enough my range was 145-155. I started out running 7:45's and 9 months later was 6:15-6:20's at 155. Training this way beats interval trained method by a long shot! Recovery is better, you have more energy after a 2.5 hour run and can actually do something besides crash the rest of the day. I've returned to this type of training after goofing around the last 5 years of doing nothing but training how I feel. Most of the time I over do it on the daily runs and end up to tired and sore for the next days session. Also, I was reading on another site about what is being discussed here. The guy is a triathlon coach and he says one should needs to find their aerobic threshold by noticing a breathing change. After 20-30 minutes of running there should be a change to a deeper breathing pattern. At this point add 10 beats and that should be your "zone" for that training day. You can find an article about this at

www.xtri.com

. Anyway, my two cents. Keep up the discussion.

Mr.T

"So it's okay to run a little bit harder when you feel like it, not just too hard?"

Yes, exactly.

"If I could, I would like to ask one question: If you were to go back to your teenage self, knowing what you know now, would you train today exactly the same as you did then?"

Yes, of course. I honestly do not think that I left any stone un-turned.

If you want to know what needs to be done to reach your best view Seko, Inubushi, Meyer, Bordin etc, etc. etc. logs.

If people can benefit from your advice I say excellent power to them, not knocking that at all.

van,

I agree with what Hadd say regarding the 200's. But not so many. 12 x 200m floating, strides not sprinting every one.

I would get on the grass for some of these sessions and extend to 12x300m other times. Try doing some on a slight downhill for stride length.

Take good recovery time (wear your HRM if you need to get your money's worth out of that useless thing).

Good luck in Sac.

Hodgie

When I was still near my peak in the late 80s, I trained for 2 years or so under Roy Benson using the heart rate monitor and basically the formula one of you suggested for figuring the 70 percent and so on.

I had to use the specific formula rather than the simplified ones because I had a very high max (209 or better at age 28) and resting about 36-38. This allowed my 70 percent to be a little faster, but it would still seem slow at the start of a season (7:30s or slower).

However, as others have said, a few weeks of solid aerobic development quickly remedied that. By the time I got in decent shape, I was running 6:20-6:40 pace at 70 percent and it was very easy, but effective. My race times were around 30:50 for 10k and 14:50 for 5k, so you can see we're talking 1:30-1:45 slower than 10k race pace. When I started the season, my race pace would have been 20-30 sec./mile slower at least.

What I really liked the monitor was for anaerobic threshold runs, particularly over a similar course over several weeks. When I progressed from running 3 miles at 85 percent (185-90) at 5:50 pace, to 3 miles at 85 percent at 5:15 pace, I knew I'd gotten fit.

[quote]Hadd wrote:

Let's look at a runner called Marco. Teenage 800/1500m guy with a HRmax of 205+. Great anaerobic capacity. Poor aerobics. Hated easy running. Like a million young guys on this site. Marco has a 1.56/800m PR.

I lactate tested him on 10 Sept 02 after an August break of no running and lotsa swimming (plays waterpolo in summer):

HR Mins/mile

150 9.37

160 8.32

170 7.06

180 6.20

quote]

Wow, that sounds extremely close to where I'm at. 1:55 PR, HR max of 200+, and just got back from a 5 1/2 mile run while trying to stay at 145-150 HR - averaged 9:39 pace.

So this aerobic conditioning phase that Marco did, it's just lots of miles at aerobic pace? With maybe one session a week at a slightly faster pace? Sounds good to me. Anything else I should know about this phase of training? (Having never trained properly, I'm new to this).

Nevermind - found what I needed in an earlier post. But it answers my question, so thanks.

Hadd,

you said that I need weeks of milage at 7:30 pace. Did Lydiard not say that it was okay to run at a faster pace once per week, because you cannot let your body constantly run at the same pace?

So how would 1 weekly run of 30-60 min around 6:00-6:20 pace sound?

Hey, great thread, but maybe I've missed something fundamental. Why do long periods of ONLY aerobic work? Why not do aerobic work with harder VO2-Max and AT workouts interspersed? Are full benefits only gained when 100% of your weekly mileage is aerobic work?

I can understand having a 4 week base period, but I don't see why longer than that is really necessary. It's not like you won't benefit from aerobic work if you're also doing harder runs, is it? Some of the statements in these posts make it sound like the fitness gained from aerobic work will be cancelled out if runs of harder intensity are done occasionally.

In one post Hadd warned a runner of "never running over 170 in the base building period." Does he simply mean for this runner not to do the bulk of his mileage at this intensity (I could understand that) or does he mean this runner should never speed up in a workout to a pace above 170 (that I don't understand)? Wouldn't it be okay to run a few miles harder as long as the vast majority of running were at a lower, aerobic intensity?

Anyone that could clarify this for me I'd greatly appreciate.

this is in response to the post on how extra fat in one's diet can be beneficial. what about beer? i know i've gone out and drank a lot on saturday nights and have felt awesome on my sunday long runs. anyone else have this???

Hi Maurits ! Where are you residing now? I moved to Chattanooga seven years back to coach a big-budget HS team, including my soph son who is now surpassing me in 5ks and certainly the mile and 800 (4:36 -one attempt as a frosh and 1:59).

Encouraging to hear that 7:30s can get you a 2:19. How fast are your long runs and do you throw in a harder last third or any exact marathon pace work in the longer runs?

Hadd,

I hope the family illness is not too serious.

Hodgie,

I did wear the evil-capitalist-pig HRM today after a long weekend travelling to and from Fooltlocker South XC. Did 2hrs or roughly 17m with it varying from 125-140. After enjoying pushing these long runs, I do now find the HRM restriction a bit boring, but maybe I'm just mentally and slepp-deprived tired. At least I wasn't knackered after the run and could've gone longer.

The 200s you suggest sound similar to Hadds but with how much rest? I don't know how much I can squeeze into the next two weeks, including a bit of a taper.

How is your running going these days? Isn't GRLR sending a stud team to Sac? Will they be wearing HRMs? Are you coming out?

van,

All those miles you have under your belt & many years of running, and you need an HRM to tell you when you are running too hard?

Take a 200 rec. jog.

I am running about 25 HRM free miles a week.

Don't know about GL team, but Brad & Rich will be there to harrass you.

Hodgie

Hadd,

I am currently developing a training program for someone I haven't worked with before, but it is a somewhat interesting case from other athletes that I coach, so I wanted your input. She has been doing 65-80mpw for the last two years, with no injury problems, and it has ALL been aerobic running. Most of her runs are at 7:30-8:30 mpm. She has done NO speedwork for two years, except for the occasional race. She has PR's of 18:45 5k, 69minutes 10 miles, 3:15 for marathon, and 8:02 for a 50 mile ultramarathon. (Yes, you read that right) She wants to start doing speedwork and racing more, so I am planning on starting her with once per week hills or tempo or fartlek, alternating weeks w/ ea., and starting her with 5-8 strides 2-3x per wk. Then after a couple months of this then possibly starting with 2 wkouts per week. Let me know what you think and what you would do differently. Anyone else w/ any ideas are more than welcome as well.

hey ?,

Hadd posted that he would be away for a week. Family illness :( (I hope not too serious).

Hadd-

I just recently came across this topic and have enjoyed reading theinput from so many posters.

here's my question:

are you saying that by running slowly for long periods of time you will eventually wear out your slow twitch fibers and therefore recruit fast twitch?

unfortunately, you are recruiting both fast and slow twitch fibers from the onset of exercise, no matter how slow. the FT will always wear out faster than the ST and if anything, you'll just make the ST more efficient and the FT less efficient (at being used at slow paces).

while you are recruiting more fibers as ones used early in exercise fatigue, those fatiguing are not going to be the ST, but rather the FT ... and those recruited at slow paces will be those most efficient at oxidative capacities: ST.

let me know what you think.

Hey Hey!! Post #100.... again. Still looking for that Letsrun T-shirt. OK OK, brojos drive a hard bargain when giving awards, so I'll pay postage. I'll wait right here until I hear back.

Oh yeah, very nice thread. Carry on.