Salazar, Ritz, and the Perfect Stride

Of course he creeps you out- he's risen from the dead more times than Bela Lugosi

Toastwater wrote:

Another reason for annoyance--Salazar just creeps me out. This whole article just makes him seem creepier to me.

Focusing very intensely is one thing. Obsessing or obsessiveness is quite another unhealthy thing. That's not good for anyone.

An intelligent and thoughtful response, "Good Art". Thank you. The mastery / expertise that Ritz acquired via a good body and deliberate practice over years and years — he certainly has blown through the 10,000 hr. benchmark! — are built many variables both known and unknown, verbalized or not. I won't deny this.

To me your post begs 2 important questions: (1) Why would a coach take a seasoned and successful athlete of Ritzenhein's caliber, someone who is on the verge of a "world class marathon," and tinker with what has shown itself to work; and (2) Is this a "radical" overhaul.

I would answer #1 by saying that both AlSal and Ritz would see world class marathon of, say, 2:06:xx (or upper 2:05 for that matter) as a great advance but not enough to get Dathan where Dathan wants to go. All the components that went into achieving the level of mastery that Ritz has so far acquired aren't, in the opinion of either student or coach, enough to get to the endpoint. So something had to change. To change it was a gamble, but a calculated gamble that both teacher and student were willing to accept.

I would answer #2 by saying that the overhaul is just not as radical as we might imagine. Ritz was not a "running disaster" form-wise. (We can all think of runners who are). There is a new emphasis on (a) forefoot striking; (b) planting under your center of gravity; (c) a little higher arm carriage; and (d) a relaxed fist. Those seem smart. And I like that the original goal of slapping / pawing at the ground with the forefoot was abandoned. That showed some realism and was a concession to student's particular body.

Here's the statement and question to Ritz: "Dathan, you can pretty much have a guaranteed 2:06 with the current but the likelihood of nothing faster OR you can take a gamble in overhauling your form, which, IF it pays off — and I can't guarantee you that it will — could get you down around 2:05:00, maybe even 2:04:30 on a perfect day. Which do you want? It's time to choose."

Remember when Tiger Woods, the most successful golfer in the world, retooled his swing?

"Dathan, you can pretty much have a guaranteed 2:06 with the current"

Change to: "Dathan, you can pretty much have a guaranteed 2:06 with the current training and your existing form . . ."

Michael Yessis, among others, covered this stuff years ago in his book Explosive Running. I'd figured Salazar was familiar with it, yet it doesn't seem so from the The New Yorker article. In particular, Yessis identifies the claw back and powerful recovery and drive. He even speaks of the lack of "thigh gap" at foot strike/support that Salazar also notes when analyzing Ritzenhein.

http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Running-Science-Kinesiology-Performance/dp/0809298996

Excuse my ignorance, what's this thigh gap? I googled and found something nice, but nothing about running. Thanks.

He probably didn't pay attention to Yessis because his ideas are crazy and he doesn't understand running biomechanics.

Th

How could we know what his limits are or are not. Is it reasonable to believe that if he didn't do this form modification he won't meet his goals? There is no evidence to support that but there is implied risk to injury or messing up already good form.

There was evidence that he was getting close to 208 or under as witnessed in a time trial/ workout in a 22 miler before London. Unfortunately no one has a monopoly on certainty, and so fate would show an unfortunate result that was surprising.

Look, if he Dathan gets to 208-7, We can be slightly more confident his 206-7 are within the realm of possibilities. Time is eroding his chance to make it happen. I think to invent anything, no matter how attractive it seems , that can not be supported by evidence and suggest this is the only way. I mean the only way to make a jumbo magic reality leap is just plain wrong.

ihaveanidea wrote:

He probably didn't pay attention to Yessis because his ideas are crazy and he doesn't understand running biomechanics.

Maybe I didn't state it well: Salazar makes no mention or reference of Yessis's work in The New Yorker article (and neither does the author of the article), yet his observations and ideas overlap with those of Yessis. It may very well be that Salazar has read the book or has even met with and worked with Yessis. The point being: there is nothing new here, whether already covered by Yessis or various articles and studies on biomechanics of running.

and my point is Yessis is clueless on biomechanics, and for the most part what Dathan is doing/changing does not reflect Yessis' ideas.

We've known how to run for the most part for decades. You can find solid practical biomechanics of running books way back in the 50's that have the same main concepts that we use today. Maybe the explanations aren't there like today, but the general concept is.

The difference is most distance coaches decided biomechanics didn't matter. The ones who thought they did were full track coaches, not just distance specialists, like Bill Bowerman or Peter Tegen.

"I think to invent anything, no matter how attractive it seems , that can not be supported by evidence and suggest this is the only way. I mean the only way to make a jumbo magic reality leap is just plain wrong."

______________

But what constitutes evidence in this case? Many posters on LRC have weighed in that changes to their form — of the kind that AlSal is trying to do for Ritz — have benefited them greatly. Five or so years ago I spent the better part of 2 years overhauling my form. It was tough, but I did it slowly and wisely, and now it feels natural and helps me run faster. Granted, none of us are elite runners, but why wouldn't it work for them too? And at some point someone out there has to do some real-world testing. For that you need a guide and willing subjects.

There's an awful lot at stake for Ritz, and maybe more than most on this board want to see him gamble on, but I rather like his courage and commitment. To be the best you often have to go out to the far edge of the cliff. I hope, as you do, that this pays off. Time will tell. (And you're right that he doesn't have tons of time left.)

ihaveanidea wrote:

and my point is Yessis is clueless on biomechanics, and for the most part what Dathan is doing/changing does not reflect Yessis' ideas.

Could you explain further or furnish some specific examples of where Yessis is "clueless" and where Salazar/Ritz (at least according to the New Yorker article - if you have more personal knowledge, do add) are doing something, for the most part, different?

I'm sure you have seen or heard the elaborate claims made on some late night infomercials promising wonderful things. The fitness industry, in fact most industries, political or otherwise are well known for being very persuasive using anecdotal evidence.

So, for your success changing your running technique, there might be 2 others with a different nutritive. All is well and good if there were no risks, and too I can't imagine how Alberto can believe by not doing it would prevent the outcome Ritz wants. To frame it this way just reminds me of those late night snake oil salesmen that are selling us miracles.

ref. Wikipedia: Non Sequitur argument - Logical fallacies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

Retrospective thoughts on AlSal's tinkering or tampering anyone? My thoughts are the unraveling of the NOP is just beginning; Ritz hurt, Webb fired, What next...?

What next... Bring in Mo Farrah to replace Webb... get Ritz healthy... go back to having Goucher, Ritz, Rupp, Begley as top athletes.

Just to throw my own opinion in, with a bit of personal experience. I was never a great runner– high school prs were 16:08 xc, 10:01 3200, 4:40 1600. My xc time was my most competitive time, and I always wanted to break into the 15:00s but was never able to, mostly due to the fact that I was plagued with constant injuries.

Now, running at the club level in college, I muscled my way to an admittedly mediocre 27:21 8k, but was injured again soon after. Part of my tendency for injuries probably comes from my bad habit of piling on too much mileage too soon, but part of it also came from my running form. I watched a video a friend took of me running, and I realized that I was overstriding like crazy and putting a lot of loading on my legs with every stride.

After my second tibial stress fracture in a year this past fall, I started really studying running form. All those things that AlSal is working on with Ritz- foot placement, arm positioning, higher cadence, and the like. I've now been running low mileage since February, doing 1 or 2 workouts each week and 1 or 2 easy runs, and cross training by cycling or swimming on the other days. On a whim, I went to a club track meet with my running club and ran a 1600. This was in early March, after doing only 1 tempo run and 1 interval workout since I began running. I ran a 4:42 mile, which isn't even a PR, but it came out of nowhere since I had done very little in way of workouts and I hadn;t raced since the fall. The only thing I can really attribute this to is my change in form– thinking of the idea running stride as more circular really allowed me to get going "fast" but not feel as if I were fighting the track, which I always felt like I was doing before I started focusing on form.

Now, I don't think that low mileage and focusing on form will ever make anyone a great runner. However, by focusing on form, which will hopefully lead to a lower rate of injury, I'll hopefully be able to slowly build up mileage and start running some more respectable times.

I think one reason people are hesitant to correct form is because that type of thinking is often associated with form gurus, such as those that we see in Pose or Chi methods. I think its bs to believe that just by buying someone's coaching materials you'll run better, but these methods (in my opinion, Pose more so than Chi), have valuable information for us to learn from. Especially with pose, it's not as if Romanov made up a new way to run– he looked at great runners and asked "What do they do that allows them to train at the mileage, intensity, volume that they do? How do they look when they're racing?" Personally, I'd love to look like Bekele when I'm running, since I believe that will help me avoid injury so that I can really train for a long period of time and achieve my goals. I used to be a form skeptic too, but as an avid swimmer and swim coach, I realized that my focus on drills with swimming emphasized a focus on proper technique to maximize efficiency, and that denying myself that focus in running would ultimately be detrimental to my running. Just my own experience.

Go AlSal, Go Ritz, Go USA