Dismal race for Webb (1:51) ... he's done

I agree with this post. What bothers me is that he went out really slowly against a bunch of scrubs and was passed by two scrubs and passed none himself. No offense to those guys, because obviously they are great athletes, but this is a 3:46 guy we are talking about here.

It's ALWAYS been mental for Webb, and anyone who has half a brain and has watched his career over the years knows this. If he can relax and enjoy it and give it his best and harness that inner hunger, he can be one of the best in the world. Who knows if he can/will?

I want to add that I'm a big Webb fan, and hopefully it was clear in my post that I'm not saying that he's definitely done.

He looks super lean. Give him some more time to be injury free, run some good mileage, and get his speed back. Its too early to tell.

http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/2010/07/a-brief-chat-with-alberto-salazar-and-alan-webb.html

Article here explains all about the plans for his comeback. This is exactly where Salazar expected him to be. I don't really see a failure in this meet so much as a really super cautious comeback. The whole idea is to keep him healthy for as long as possible. Give him till the spring and I bet he starts rocking out again.

I'm glad this thread turned around to a little more positive. 1:51 for the 800? I'm sure Alan is just happy to be healthy out on the track again. And seriously people....done? After only 1 race back? At least give the person a year, it's not like he ran 2:02 or something. To come back from Achilles surgery and run within 6 seconds of a world-class 800 time is not a complete failure. I'm not a huge Webb fan, but being an American I want to see him do well and that includes now. If he is still running 1:50 next year then I'll agree that he needs to do something else. Remember, Jim Ryun had a few 4:10 races during the same time frame when he was running 3:50's. You can't have it every day all the time. To the Let's Run Posters, do the times that you run determine if your opinion is legitimate or not? Your talent doesn't always reflect your knowledge or intelligence about training or racing.

Take it from a friend of Webb: Had he gone any faster than 1:52 Salazar would have been pissed.

The sole point of this effort was to work on pacing for a rabbited metric mile in September, where 3:35ish is the goal.

I just wanted to echo the last sentiment I read. An opinion's legitimacy is weakest when it is based solely on a person's name or claimed and unsubstantiated experience. On the other hand, the opinions with the most weight and credibility share a common trait; they are thoughtful. Making a conclusory statement that happens to be right is not thought - it's useless. So I know where I stand on the issue but I am still unclear about why the last 14 months of Alan Webb's career dictate that he is "done" as a professional distance runner. Give me a theory, some evidence and maybe even a conclusion if you are so inclined. Anyone got any legitimate ideas about age, injury frequency, mental health, coach change, or even anal probing aliens?

Perspectivation wrote:

You don't run 1:43 withoug doing A LOT of speedwork. Webb is doing NO speedwork right now. Forget the 3 years past 1:43, forget the 800. Webb has been doing a watered down version of Rupps workouts (5000 stuff), so unless you think Rupp is about to run 1:45 then why would you think Webb is ready for 1:47?

True to a limited extent.. but speed doesn't come and go like aerobic fitness, it is neural, it is mechanical, it is power, it takes years to hone and improve an athletes natural speed, it doesn't just disappear so abruptly.

Look, I am not sold that this is the end for Webb, or a disaster of a performance, but I am surprised that his natural gifts didn't shine through a bit more. I know plenty of guys who can get to within striking distance (read 2-3 secs) of their 800 PB's off the smell of a pair of trainers, its those last few seconds which take all the work. That is what great talent allows. What this performance indicates to me is that alot of Webbs talent, and success is due to the sheer quantities of hard work he is able to put in, and subsequently without that work behind him struggles physically and mentally.

For an athlete coming back from injury the only real concern is if the injury problem has gone.

Assesing how the injury has cleared is the main priority especially in a race where something thought to have gone in training can flare up. On a fitness level 1:52 is not a disaster

If he's clear after this race he can work on getting his times back down, with the renewed confidence to push himself hard, and is still young enough to do that

He has done almost no speed work. I was never an 800-1500 specialist but I did manage a 1:54 in high school when I was running 400s on relays and doing 1600s and 800's and in peak form. If I had to run and 800 mid summer when my mileage was up but I was doing no speedwork, I doubt I would have run faster than 1:58-1:59.

You're right that you don't actually lose the speed, but you have to nourish it back out. Think about a carton of ice cream that has been in the freezer for a year since you last ate it. The great tasting ice cream is still in there, but your gonna have to do some work and scoop off the freezer burn and ice on top before you get that great taste back. It never left, it just has to be groomed back out. In the case of Webb, real speedwork. He simply hasn't done it yet and rightly so. He's erasing the board and starting over in pretty much every way. Add that he's coming back from achilles surgery and I simply can't believe that people think he'd be in spikes blasting speedwork at this point.

We all know you gotta pour a good foundation before you start applying the windows and paint, otherwise the house shatters at the first sign of pressure. This year is a foundation year for them.

Also, I doubt he'll ever have the goal of an 800 PR again. It's not necessary. He'll probably gain more as a 1500-5000 man by only being able to run 1:44high to 1:45. We know what Lagat was able to accomplish with slower.

And before we go into the "yeah but Lagat could have run 1:4X if he had focussed on it" that is the whole point. He has done what he has at 1500/3000/5000 (double gold medalist) because he didn't.

I think we can all agree at this point, the real problem is the new coach.

Throw AlSal out, Alan should go back to the expert who brought out his greatness.

(ducks)

Prairie Dawg wrote:

Let me get this right. Webb's been training with Rupp, a 5k/10K guy under Salazar who is not known as a mid-distance coach and he ran a sluggish looking 1:52 800 at a low-key meet after 2 years off and now everyone wants to write him off for good. Really now?

Let me help you get it right.

Webb's been training with one of America's top 3 distance runners, after 2 years of rest and no pressure of competing, and is coached by an era's best marathon runner. He's surrounded by talent and is paid to live very comfortably by Nike.

He runs a very short race (I can throw a rock 800m!) in his ideal conditions - no crowd, no pressure, no world-class runners - and runs almost 10 seconds slower than his PR.

yeah, you have it about right. Everything's on track. His plan is falling into place just as they'd planned.

His wife is going to start cheating on him once he gives up the track spikes. Then he'll go back to lifting weights, playing XBox360 and hanging around his old high school.

He'll become a H.S. track coach, give up on the hair plugs maintenance, get a gut, and coach a district-winning H.S. cross country team.

Yay Alan. Be all you can be. You've let down an entire generation.

very true--most troubling thing to me was the "apparent" lack of competitiveness-----true, if he was under Al Sal orders to run 56-56, could be explained why he seemed to not respond to others moves in races----i hope we are all wrong and that a 3:35 does emerge in a month or so-

I do not think this race definitively demonstrates he never runs (3:32) again---but i find it hard to believe this result was a desired or expected outcome-----why would they do this? everyone always talks about how Nike/salazar advantage is that they address everything, including psychological, and this cannot help----why can't the Portland folks/supporters admit it was a poor performance, all things considered, and just move on---the partisanship on these boards is silly----the performance was below expectations, but it does not mean he is done--and in my view he looked extremely passive so my hope is that his body is considerably better than 1:52 but for whatever hopefully fixable reason his head wasn't quite in it.

I thought it looked pretty clear right from the gun that this was a completely controlled effort. I think too many people are overlooking his 55.x - 56.x simply because it was a race environment and aren't taking into consideration that they're are other aspects of a race that Alsal and Alan can use to brush up and get a few controlled efforts under his belt.

Point being, Alan isn't going to be ready by the end of the season to be a consistent diamond league 1500 runner. He's been injured and doesn't have the base... but what they can do, is get a few low key controlled efforts under his belt, gain some confidence with those efforts, get some experience back in the racing environment, and make a big effort to have a standout race or two at the end of the season and be ready, excited, and motivated to start the build for 2012.

In my opinion, what happened to Alan wasn't overly his fault, but the inexperience of Razcko coaching a world class guy and talent like Webb. I think his success came with a price that didn't have to be paid if he had been with Salazar earlier... but, hindsight is always 20-20.

I think he's too talented to write off, and running low key, pressure free controlled efforts gives him an opportunity to "get back on the horse" without having to be disappointed by being thrown right in the mix of the A class Europeans... you have to walk before you can run... and i would put my money that his 1:52 was a walk.

In the history of US track and field we have never seen a Miler of this caliber slump so badly. It is actually mind-boggling to watch.

wow he may have been a factor in the new york state h.s. championships with this time. . . .

but maybe, no.

the diatribe header on letsrun is an apologists nirvana. . .

this race sucked.

no excuses.

clearly a talented man.

maybe a tormented man.

want him to succeed.

but maybe the salazar pressure cant remake a diamond who turned to coal, back into a diamond...

I totally agree. I have always been a Webb fan[Yes , there are some still around]- He's still in his 20's. His mental state will determine how well he does. If he's motivated, he's going to bounce back, but he's got to want it. He's got to focus. It's going to be a tough run, especially since he's getting married and a lot of his success will be determined how well his wife will support him in his training, his traveling, his racing all over the world. But I wish him the best of luck and hope he returns with a vengance. Go gett'em A.B. I look forward to seeing you giving Lagat, Ritz, Rupp, Schelinsky, and Wheating a run for their money.

[quote]"Rumors of my demise...." wrote:

Good post Jim!

I was a half miler, just a couple of years ahead of you and my first race back from injury with half the layoff time as Webb and I ran 1:57. I finished in the middle of the pack at a local all comers meet. The time was slower than I ran as a 16 year old, but I walked off the track happy to be back in the game and feeling pain free. It felt good to get that first race out of the way and I really enjoyed that litte meet because of the tremendous ecouragement I received from 'everyone'. I actually high jumped and ran a leg on a 4x4 for a local club at that meet. My HJ was 5'11" and my 400 was 51x; just like the 800, nothing to write home about; however, it was a fun way to get back into it. Although I heard few jokes, I did not hear one negative comment about my performaces...perhaps there are advantages to not being able to hide behind message boards.

I am not sure why my first race back was so slow, but I ran 1:49 (19) days later. Btw, that little meet I was at had several athletes who went on to win Olympic medals in their career, you really don't have too many meets in the U.S. like that anymore, which is probably why in part Webb ran his first race in Europe.

Again, thanks for the post Jim and to Webb, remember, big ships turn around slowly.

A few thoughts:

Negative: I've never seen a result this poor during competition from an athlete of Webbs caliber. You would never see Coe or Cram or Ovett or Hicham or Scott or Lagat turn in a performance like this. They might have not been in great shape sometimes, but they never tried to race during those times. They would not humiliate themselves in that way.

Also, he didn't look to ever really be in the race. He never tried to pass anyone and got passed himself. This was not a race for Alan Webb.

Positive: He looked under control, his form looked much better and he looked relaxed at 55-56 pace. He ran even splits and didn't look exhausted at the line. He is probably in 2:20 800m shape.

You can't just look at this as an 800m time. Compared to his 1:43 personal best, a 1:52 looks snail paced. But to run this time after not racing for 14 months, on a wet track, under control means a lot. Look at it as a time trial, like 800m at current 1000m pace or 1200m pace. He just ran 800m at 1500m goal pace. That's a start.

I'm sure A.S. and A.W. now have a pretty good idea of where he is at, and A.S. probably has a pretty good idea of how to get them where they want to be.