The advice on this thread is ridiculous.
The advice on this thread is ridiculous.
I still think the vast majority of 3:00 marathoners get there on LOTS of training. I know more people who train everyday and never sniff 3:30 much less 3:00. I see lots of people at my gym go out to run everyday and rarely run 3:30-4:00. For the vast majority of runners, 8-9:00 pace is normal. I've "talked shop" with hundreds of runners. I chit chat with them on a daily basis over the last 6 years.
Your "average" runner didn't run in high school or college. Runs 5-7 days a week. Runs around 8-9:00 pace for a marathon. Never visits Letsrun.
I'm not saying their aren't examples of guys running 3:00 on 3 days a week....but I don't think that's the norm.
Most of the people on this site lay fire to the vast majority of runners they see at the local yocal 5k. This site, and the small number of runners it attracts, is but a small niche compared to the "runners at large" not blessed with such genetics and talent at an early age but still want to get better, still try their hardest yet are still dragged through the coals by "young competitive runners".
Alan
I don't know how everyone else trained but a lot of runners that I know went through a college system that included some form of plyometric, weight or circuit training.
My personal experience is that it helped ME.
I came into college as a really strong endurance based runner, never really had a extreme amount of speed (~55-56 all out in the quarter). We always started the season off with some basic circuit stuff but by indoors we were hopping on top/over various sized platforms/hurdles/etc. As a freshman I sucked BAD, but other freshman were just flying over them, a difference that was also present in our raw speed / coordination too. By my senior season I was doing the more tough stuff like hopping on high platform jumps from a standing start with ease. Form and coordination was there and I had a noticeable improvement in being able to react or just explode.
Another thing is that I was rail thin and WEAK. If I did 200m repeats, I'd feel like my arms did a thousand reps on the bench. Four years of weight training later, I was only 5 pounds heavier but my form was rock solid when kicking like mad.
Like I said earlier, some people are naturally talented and would only see marginal resuls, me, it helped a lot. I kept training like I always had (80-90mpw) and ended my college running career feeling pretty complete.
No doubt most of you are familiar with all of the following links, but if not...
Patrick Smyth workout:
Wharton Rope Stretching (AIS routine):
http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=3512&PageNum=1
Myrtl Routine:
Myrtl as part of an 8 week progression:
http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16625
To the OP, I likely won't respond for several weeks, but I will eventually. I'm just behind in work/life/fitness. Again, I assume you've seen all of these, but if not this will give you some more resources for your files.
Two more things. First, I'll respond to all of the questions in the tread. I hope to run with a local neuro surgeon in the coming weeks and I'll ask about the CNS vs. PNS since every thing I know I already put in the post/link earlier in this thread. I'm intrigued with the distance running-OCD connection and I think about it every day, every day, every day, every day...
Second, tonight the best 2-3 zone in the country got beat. I only watched 8 min of the game but they didn't close the gaps and they let some lesser athletes get a lot of rebounds under the zone. Jim Boeheim is the person all of the other coaches call for 2-3 zone wisdom, yet his team did a poor job doing it. This thread is a reminder of why we do the extra stuff and this post begs a question, "at what point are you better off sleeping, icing, eating or getting a lymphatic drain massage?" as well as the obvious, "Wouldn't running more and running harder be a better use of your time?" Simple questions and thanks for the opportunity to think about them.
OP - Couple more things before I sign off.
This video shows exercises you can find in many distance programs in the world.
The exercises are mostly in sequential order as they'd occur in a practice session, but more importantly I don't think any of them are that odd/weird/foreign. For more explanation dig into the blog - it's all there in detail.
OP, remember that any of those similar exercises can be put together as routines and the routines and be placed in a training day. This is taught in USATF coaching education in a formal way, but I forget how they phrased it. I just remember Gary Winkler suggesting that each coach have a "menu" when they come to practice. Once you have your menu you simply choose what is needed that day from your menu. To be honest, I didn't really know what he meant so I simply bugged my friend Mike Smith at Kansas State until I mostly understood what was on Mike's menu (and his menu is informed by Cliff Rovelto's menu and Cliff's menu is likely informed from late nights with Pfaff, Boo, Winkler, etc., etc.). After making/editing the two DVDs I have a good feel for Mike's menu. While I no longer us much DIRECTLY off Mike's menu, 70% of the "ingredients" I use are on his menu, and I'm usually trying to employ them in the same place/context as he does. So Myrtl is simply an amalgamation of exercises for the hip girdle; almost all of those exercises I learned from Mike (clams is from the CU trainer as glut med is horrible in 95% of runners) yet those exercises are in three different routines on Vol.1 of our DVD and that bugged me so I came up with Myrtl. I had put them together into a routine that is designed to start a bit challenging, end easy, with the simplest hip mobility I could think of, the thought being we want neutral hips when we leave the track and get into our car. So myrtl was scavenged and pieced together and now it's on the menu. Cannonball is longer, but easier. Grant Green is longer and more difficult. Lionel Hampton is the longest, but again, it's easy and it's the one we do most often. They are all cool downs and they all look very similar to the stuff Smyth did to warm-up.
Back to the menu analogy. Lime sorbet with a touch of basil oil is a fantastic intermezzo during a long meal, yet it's also a great light dessert on a hot day. Hurdle Mobility (HM) can be used to loosen up before a workout or to maintain mobility after a workout; you can do it fast and it becomes plyometric, or you can do it slow and it can teach novel motor patterns and/or reinforce good motor patterns; an athlete could use HM to self asses flexibility levels* or a PT, Physio, Chrio or anyone else who is curious about how the body works can use HM to asses a-symmetries, weaknesses, imbalances, etc. Obviously I'm not saying anything different than the post below, yet in writing the above I think I have a better appreciation for what Vern is saying with that post (and remember, he's a track coach at the core).
http://www.functionalpathtrainingblog.com/2010/02/a-snapshot-or-a-movie.html
HM is one of the things I try to watch after every workout and I'm getting better at seeing things, both inter- and intra-; I know how Brent and Sara look when they are doing well or fatigued and I think I'm starting to see how different each athlete is their first 4 or 5 days over 36-60 hurdles (6 hurdles set up, go through 6-10 times)...though I'm years away from being able to diagnose and then fix anything, which is what Pfaff and others can do.
Finally, the only thing I do before every run is the lunge matrix (LM), which means I don't do all of the stuff I ask athletes to do. That said, I don't care that I look odd doing it. Example:
http://www.coachjayjohnson.com/2010/03/practice-what-you-preach/
I guess this just feeds the rationale in this thread about believing in things is more important than the efficacy of the things, yet a few days after this thread a former MD athlete randomly called to say he was quite healthy in his marathon training and that he thought the lunge matrix was a big reason why he felt so good.
I should do all of stuff I assign to the athletes I work with, yet I never don't do the LM. It's non-negotiable.
*The thing I remember most from Phil Wharton demonstrating the AIS at a HS clinic a few years back was his comment that flexibility changes day to day, workout to workout. Makes sense and for this reason I want athletes to use the AIS in a right brain manner and not as a mindless warm-up or cool-down obligation.
Jay is such a smart guy, and his 2-3 zone analogy got me thinking enough to want to try to attempt a layman's answer to the oroginal question.
Our sport of track and field is called ATHLETICS around the world. I believe it is because we are true and the original athletes. No zone defense, no wish bone offense, no suicide squeeze. In fact we really don't even need team mates.
But we are athletes, just as are football players, soccer players etc are athletes. As athletes we need speed, strength, coordination, mobility and endurance. If you play water polo you need thses 5 things, if you run the 10k you need these 5 things, and if you run the 110m high hurdles you need these 5 things (and each of these 5 things have sub categories that can be trained through an infinte variety of methods/exercises).
How much of each of these 5 things you need is dependent upon your event. And while let's runners might spend much of their time trying to improve specific endurance, these other 4 things are important too to varying degrees. (becaue there are often discussions about improving speed, and speed certainly requires different coordination and mobility levels than perhaps half marathon pace etc)
It was only a generation ago that even the best American sprinters were jogging and stretching and even running lost of 600s as their primary means of training. Then Loren Seagrave popularized a dynamic warm up that had parts of these 5 things in them. This infomration was passed from coach to coach and coach to athlete. Fifteen years ago I distinctly remember going to track meets and looking around to see which athletes were doing side slides and leg swings because almost no one was. It always caught my attention to those who were "catching on." In fact George Mason was the first collegiate team I witnessed doing it. But now you simply look at Flo track and the those preparing for World Cross are doing it, and women's XC teams are doing it before workouts etc. And if you watch warmup at a track meet these days, EVERYONE is doing it even at the middle school level.
But interrestingly I was working at a D3 school early on as an assistant. The head coach and I would teach warmup routines to the other sports like soccer and field hockey.
One day perhaps a month after working with the men's soccer team, the soccer coach calls us into the video room and puts on a "european soccer goalie training tape" and voila it was the dynamic warm up activities. Sliding, skipping, changing directions, rolling around for mobility purposes. Many of the exact same activities I was taught by Loren.
The lightbulb went on and I connected Loren Seagrave's roots in soccer (and plant pathology for that matter) and not track and field and things started to become even clearer. We are building better athletes. Something that the aforementioned Cliff Rovelto has instilled in all of his assistant coaches. Not only do we try to build better athletes, but if we want to be a good team, we need to be looking for better athletes when we are out recruiting. (Hence Christian Smiths 8 man football background made him a more intriguing prospect then someone who was merely focusing on cross country)
So you will see Steve Fritz's perenial All American weight and hammer throwers doing many of the same activities as Mike Smith's xc group and Coach Rovelto's decathletes. They will just do them with a level of appropriateness geared toward their event.
Then you will go over to the KSU weight room or football stadium and you will see similar activites performed there but in different volume, intensity or sequence. (for them perhaps a one lap jog around the field pre or post practice might be enough to satisfy the steady distance run component)
To quote Mike Smith again, "all work is good work." The better coaches and athletes are making intelligent decisions about which work is being prescribed within the context of their program.
So sure, run more if you can as the original poster asked. But do these things too. How you decide to do it is the art of coaching.
Incoherent prose wrote:
I respect you as a coach, Mr Johnson, but please lay off of the caffeine.
I agree. Keep the posts brief guys and say something coherent.
wellnow wrote:
Incoherent prose wrote:I respect you as a coach, Mr Johnson, but please lay off of the caffeine.
I agree. Keep the posts brief guys and say something coherent.
Oh no! Someone starts a thread about someone, and the subject of the thread comes on and tries to answer the OP's questions in a way that sheds light on his thinking! The horrors! How are we supposed to read all the other incredibly insightful threads on this board if someone is going to write something that takes a few minutes to read?!?
Yeah, STFU up wellnow. You're an idiot anyway.
Wellnow, if you don't like it, please go elsewhere. I have gotten so much information from this thread and I appreciate Jay's thorough explanation of his routines.
wellnow wrote:
Incoherent prose wrote:I respect you as a coach, Mr Johnson, but please lay off of the caffeine.
I agree. Keep the posts brief guys and say something coherent.
You clearly think that you´re smarter than you are. You are an idiot.
wellnow wrote:
Incoherent prose wrote:I respect you as a coach, Mr Johnson, but please lay off of the caffeine.
I agree. Keep the posts brief guys and say something coherent.
Yeah, god forbid anyone write in sentences longer than a few words, with a semi-complicated sentence structure, and with a well thought out response.
Personally, I like the approach Jay Johnson takes to sharing info with people. He's approachable and puts the info out for people. LR should be lucky to have coaches that actually come on here and share their thoughts/research/training methods.
I'm a fan of drills, but I also hear what the anti-drill people are saying. There are hundreds of things we could do to improve our running/racing, but at some point we all make a cost-benefit decision: is the time I put into this non-running activity really going to pay off? Life isn't all about running, and, once you get out of college, you'll be amazed at the seemingly simple activities that suck up all of your time. I guess you could live as a running hermit, but where's the fun in that?
Sure, the lunge matrix is only about five minutes of your time. But then you add in a more advanced warmup, then a cooldown routine, then a bedtime routine, and soon your hour run turns into a two hour workout session. And that doesn't include any weights or cross training you might do. If you're a pro athlete with nothing but time, it may be worth it to do all of the little things. For someone working a nine hour day who wants to play with his kids when he gets home, it can be a bit much.
And, as with anything in running, you have to find what works for you. Jay has done his research, but his programs aren't for everyone. I tweaked two of his warmup sessions and added some components of my own to create an efficient, comprehensive routine that works for me. If I had a whole day to just run, I'd do 90 minutes of running every day with a full warmup and cooldown routine. But because real life gets in the way, I try and run 30-60 minutes do my own drill thing.
I tweaked two of his warmup sessions and added some components of my own to create an efficient, comprehensive routine that works for me....I try and run 30-60 minutes do my own drill thing.
Good for you. I bet he'd approve.
I have to say that these well-produced, well-explained videos, coupled with message boards and blogs, are a fantastic leap forward for coaching (as well as for cyberloafing...)
I remember reading coaches' books and/or physio/rehab articles in the pre-internet days and trying to figure out WTF they were talking about from inadequate text or photos. You could either take something massively out of context and do too much of it, or get exercises totally wrong.
We should all be very grateful to Mr. Johnson and the other helpful coaches who post here for showing us options and ideas, and letting us all try them out with such great ease.
old steepler wrote:
I have to say that these well-produced, well-explained videos, coupled with message boards and blogs, are a fantastic leap forward for coaching (as well as for cyberloafing...)
I was thinking this same thing yesterday as I was doing the Myrtl routine and mimicking Patrick Smyth's warmup. So much great information on these boards.
wellnow wrote:
Keep the posts brief guys and say something coherent.
I agree but it's easier to just iggie the thread.
Having sat through literally hours of Jay's lectures at the extreme running camp he use to put on the guy knows his stuff. His posts don't even do him justice when it comes to how smart he is in his training philosophy. He is always willing to learn and innovate so don't be suprised to see some big names going his way in the future. He eats, sleeps, and breaths running ( I mean come on the guy named his dog Zola for crying out loud) and he is one hell of a guy. At the best to you Jay.
I would have to agree with Alan. While specificity of training is obviously important, there are still SO many different ways that you can still enhance your running and just strengthen your body in general. Just because a specific drill or exercise is not directly affecting your lungs/legs doesn't mean that it's not helping you out in multiple ways.
I've had four different running coaches in my career. Two really stand out. The first coach had much of the same mentality that you (Belarussian) do -- he was fairly big on mileage and getting in the 2-3 track workouts a week. He literally ignored any other type of training besides running. We never talked about lifting, drills, core workouts, or even stretching. I would even ask him if we could get together and do team stretching, and he said to do it on our own time because running was the main focus. As you can imagine, we had a lot of injuried runners, and also there was little progress made the two years he coached us.
The 2nd coach that stands out was for a different reason. He was big on mileage, big on track workouts, but also very consistent about slowly incorporating different types of drills and mechanical exercises for us to do. He also encouraged a core workout about twice a week and upperbody lifting for those of us who were willing to do it. I specifically remember him having us do backwards skipping drills...along with dozens of other drills. I always felt like an idiot at practice because it looks and feels completely pointless while you are doing it and watching everyone else stumbling around the track backwards. But one thing REALLY stands out about our team the three years I was on it. We were literally one of the strongest teams I knew among all of the teams we competed against nationally. We rarely had injuries, and we were also strong in the sense that at the end of the season, we were the athletes performing the fastest and running the most consistent times. And a much larger portion of the team would be running PR's than anything else. It wasn't until the end of the season when I was finally allowed to taper that I could really feel all of the strength, flexibility, and speed I had worked on during the drills. It's tough to feel the benefits when you are tired from mileage and workouts. But you ARE benefitting. I'm not just believing in a system or buying into the "magic."
I'm currently running on my own now. I'm still being coached but I don't have someone there to force me to do the drills every other day or to update my lifting routine. One of the best things I've done this winter is forced myself to do drills 2-3 times a week and slowly add in new ones to challenge myself. I've also worked incredibly hard to strengthen my core and a lot of muscles that runners NEGLECT and forget about. You might not be directly affecting your lungs, like I said, but you aren't ever going to run fast if you are weak and injury prone and you certainly aren't going to be able to compete against another runner who has taken the time to strengthen specific areas of their body that make them faster, quicker, and able to last longer in a race. I know for a fact that the core workouts I've been blasting through all winter are doing wonders during my longer training runs and workouts. I don't find my form breaking down nearly so much. When I'm doing strides I feel a dramatic difference in strength and form from all of the types of skips I've been doing, foot drills, and again core.
I know this is long, but please dont be so quick to blow of something that you haven't tried yourself or obviously given enough time to understand.
Runningart2004 wrote:
I still think the vast majority of 3:00 marathoners get there on LOTS of training. I know more people who train everyday and never sniff 3:30 much less 3:00. I see lots of people at my gym go out to run everyday and rarely run 3:30-4:00. For the vast majority of runners, 8-9:00 pace is normal. I've "talked shop" with hundreds of runners. I chit chat with them on a daily basis over the last 6 years.
There's your disconnect. You're talking about joggers, he's talking about runners.
Couldn't agree more with the original poster. Its called the SAID principle. Specific adaptations to imposed demands. Specificity of training. The way to get better at running is to run.