Who is more talented? German Fernandez or Dathan Ritzenhein?

# 2 miles - 8:11.74 (2007)

# 5,000 m - 12:56.27 (2009)AR

# 10,000 m - 27:22.28 (2009)

# Half-Marathon - 1:00:00 (2009)

# Marathon - 2:10:00 (2009)

Guess whose PRs those are?

I'm all in favor of Fernandez running fast but come on. Talent at that age hasn't had the opportunity to be tarnished, tested, or stunted. Running fast on little training doesn't mean all that much in the long run and certainly doesn't mean as much as those who are able to raise themselves to higher levels of both workload and competition. As far as I'm concerned, Ritz has done precisely that and surprised naysayers along the way. To me that's talent.

What ever happened to Obea Moore?

"I'd rather have Chris Derrick's resume, who has won every inseason encounter with German, than German's at this point."

.....aaaand that's because you're stupid.

Fernandez OWNED Derrick last year in cross. 20 seconds at USAs, and beat him at worlds while walking around in a boot. He easily would have beaten him at NCAAs had the achilles thing not happened.

Then, while Derrick blew his load (totally killing himself in that 13:29 time trial at Stanford), German ran 13:25 in a championship race, actually catching with the leaders with 2 laps to go.

Copied from another thread, in response to "Ritz is way more talented than German in cross country":

(From "throwback")

As a huge fan of both, I have to say that "far superior" is probably an overstatement. He has more consistent results, but the capacity to perform at a high level is pretty close.

Ritz was 3rd at World Juniors in part because of the incredibly poor conditions that year. It was a mudfest. He probably was top 10 material on a fast day. Teg would not have been 5th either. I love them both, but at the time they were 13:40+ guys. GF - a 13:25 guy mind you - was 11th at World Juniors on a dry course, while nursing an injury for 2-3 weeks prior (remember the boot pictures?). He beat Derrick and Puskedra SOUNDLY at USAs (20 & 35 seconds - they were what, 5th & 7th at NCAA CC that year?). He would likely have been 3rd at NCAAs had he finished. He was with the chase pack at 7.5K, after being 11 seconds back at 5K.

This past season GF clearly had issues, so to use it as "he can't finish in the top 50" is a bit misleading. He could have redshirted and the season wouldn't have counted in your anaylsis, right? But he ended up with a team title.

copier and paster wrote:

- they were what, 5th & 7th at NCAA CC that year?). He would likely have been 3rd at NCAAs had he finished. He was with the chase pack at 7.5K, after being 11 seconds back at 5K.

Yeah sure, coulda woulda shoulda, right?

Yeah, I know, right? He coulda, woulda, shoulda, and DID beat them BAD at USA CC. And he beat them at worlds. And he ran faster at EVERY distance on the track (whether totally alone, or in a US Championship race). Soooo...what's your point?

someone mentioned a blog earlier that german's teammate is writing about their teams track season.

http://cowboytrack.wordpress.com

It is good to see what those guys are up to from an insiders perspective. Still a hard call between him and ritz though

dasfsafss wrote:

Yeah sure, coulda woulda shoulda, right?

That's what this whole goddamn thread is. On both sides.

copier and paster wrote:

Yeah, I know, right? He coulda, woulda, shoulda, and DID beat them BAD at USA CC. And he beat them at worlds. And he ran faster at EVERY distance on the track (whether totally alone, or in a US Championship race). Soooo...what's your point?

My point is that he DIDN'T place third at NCAA XC. That is all. You can't argue that he did, because he didn't.

haha, YO wrote:

dasfsafss wrote:

Yeah sure, coulda woulda shoulda, right?

That's what this whole goddamn thread is. On both sides.

This is true, and basically what every thread is on letsrun. Get over it.

I'm going to submit one vote for Dathan. Most people are too young to remember how dominant he was in high school. German is just the "new thing" up and coming. As far as I'm concerned, he's nothing sans his mile and two mile credentials. Ritz WON in cross country, German got beat by TWO people, not just one. He also got beat by a kid who is doing absolutely nothing in college (Fout?). Ritz beat a 4:02 miler, and a 3:53/8:45 guy. Both of these people he beat also ran 2:06/59:47 and 3:46. Ritz just beat better runners in high school, plain and simple.

call me when german does something of note. until then dathan is still far more accomplished. True talent can't be judged until their careers are over.

It's German and all of you Letsrun posters have voted for him. Since German broke out his senior year in HS, it's been German vs. whomever is hot at the time. It started with German vs the HiSchoolers, best USAJR'S, Collegians and WJR'S. Now it is German vs the US'best. Next year it will be German vs the best Africans. German is the only one you Letsrunners VS. Not, CD, BF, GR, DU, DR, RH, EJ, MT, Etc. It's alway German. So deep down all you supporters and Nay Sayers know that German has the most talent. And all of you, just like me, wonder how good this kid can be if he stays health. His dream of an Olympic Gold medal may come true, in 2012, if he stays healthy.

oldold runner wrote:

It's German and all of you Letsrun posters have voted for him. Since German broke out his senior year in HS, it's been German vs. whomever is hot at the time. It started with German vs the HiSchoolers, best USAJR'S, Collegians and WJR'S. Now it is German vs the US'best. Next year it will be German vs the best Africans. German is the only one you Letsrunners VS. Not, CD, BF, GR, DU, DR, RH, EJ, MT, Etc. It's alway German. So deep down all you supporters and Nay Sayers know that German has the most talent. And all of you, just like me, wonder how good this kid can be if he stays health. His dream of an Olympic Gold medal may come true, in 2012, if he stays healthy.

Still voting for Dathan, sorry.

again, GF has done more with less at the same age.

Can people here read? Everyone voting for Ritz, on this last page at least, is arguing that Ritz is more accomplished or has won when it counted more. Yes - but the question is who is more talented. I take talent to mean ultimate potential, whether achieved later OR NOT. That's why people are mentioning Obea Moore, who really has no accomplishments on the world scene to speak of.

As I said before, I think Fernandez easily has more talent than Ritz. 4:00 and 8:34 2.5 hours apart as a 17 year old high school senior shows much more ultimate potential than 13:44 or Ritz's 3rd at World Cross juniors (Bekele was ahead of him, not sure how to assess rest of field). How many 13:44 5,000 runners can do that double?

In cross country, yes, Ritz has better results. German's had some volatility in his cross country past, but when he's on, he's arguably in Ritz' league (comparing at the same age).

German runs faster on the track over every distance though. He solo'd a 4:00 1600m, and followed it up with a same-day 8:34 3200m!! Ritz couldn't touch that in HS.

Solo 3:55.02 mile - an all-time indoor collegiate record

NCAA 1500m champion. Leads entire race, holds off very experienced milers with strong finishes.

7:47 3K - easily fastest ever by a freshman. 10 years ago, 7:46.03 was the NCAA record, held by Adam Goucher.

13:25 AJR at USAs. In the race with 500m to go.

Watch German's 3:55.02- it's like he's doing a tempo run. So smooth. Beautiful form. We should all be rooting for this guy.

"As far as I'm concerned, he's nothing sans his mile and two mile credentials. Ritz WON in cross country, German got beat by TWO people, not just one. He also got beat by a kid who is doing absolutely nothing in college (Fout?). Ritz beat a 4:02 miler, and a 3:53/8:45 guy. Both of these people he beat also ran 2:06/59:47 and 3:46. Ritz just beat better runners in high school, plain and simple."

I'm rooting for both runners, but I have to say that high school is the best indication of raw talent (while they're young and underdeveloped). With that said, Ritz consistently beat more talented runners. He beat Webb, whose mile is equivalent to probably a 13:25 5k. He even beat talented runners early in College, but I won't go there.

I don't think Ritz could have run 4:00/8:34 in the same meet, but I don't think German could have run 13:44. Most calculators indicate that 13:44 is a better time than 8:34 for two miles.

German's 8:34 two mile is more comparable to Chris Derrick's early 5k run (13:55?).

I will hand it to German, that double was insane. I can't describe how amazed I was when I went on letsrun that day. That double might be worth a 13:44... I'll consider that.

german had a fraction of base running under his belt before he accomplished his 1600/3200 double when compared to Ritz as a high schooler. If german had been running as much as ritz his entire high school career, German without a doubt could have surpassed his 13:25 mark as a freshman in college. German has more pure talent and natural speed over Ritz.

swagpole wrote:

I don't think Ritz could have run 4:00/8:34 in the same meet, but I don't think German could have run 13:44. Most calculators indicate that 13:44 is a better time than 8:34 for two miles.

German's 8:34 two mile is more comparable to Chris Derrick's early 5k run (13:55?).

What calculators? Links to such info?

One thing, Ritz was 11th when he ran 13:44. German was 1st in his 8:34 and won by over 10 seconds.