My message to drug cheats (especially those from Africa)

I think they could get EPO in America

They go slower because they go to some college or other & do training at sea level rather than altitude

People cheat from all countries - take a look at the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Your comment on fake junior is irrelevant - nobody is interested in junior results anyway

ukathleticscoach wrote:

I think they could get EPO in America

They go slower because they go to some college or other & do training at sea level rather than altitude

People cheat from all countries - take a look at the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Your comment on fake junior is irrelevant - nobody is interested in junior results anyway

I agree with most of your comments on these boards, and always enjoy reading your thoughtful and well-informed accounts. However, I have to say that I don't think "fake junior" results are irrelevant.

Firstly, as Canova admitted in an earlier post, most Kenyans lie about their age. Lying is dishonest, and this then opens them up to accusations of dishonesty in other areas. If they want to stop the accusations of EPO, surely they would be in a much better moral position if they told the truth about their athletes ages?

Secondly, it's unfair to those athletes with birth certificates to have to compete and invariably lose to someone who is older and stronger. This has the knock on effect of deterring young athletes from the sport. There will be those who are under the misconception that if they can't compete with alleged 17/18 year old Kenyans (who are really in their early 20's) at this stage as juniors, despite working their butts off, what chance will they have in the future when these "prodigious natural and under trained talents" reach full maturity?

Thirdly, I believe many are interested about Junior results, not least the juniors themselves, as can be seen by the various comments about athletes "junior" achievements on these boards.

E.g. People waxing lyrical about how much faster Ngeny would have run if he hadn't had an accident at 22; citing that he was running 3:42 at 17! Canova says on here that he was 6 years older, meaning he was almost 28 when he won in Sydney, as opposed to 21; and 23 when he posted a relatively mediocre 3:42. That puts a completely different light on his career and potential. There aren't many athletes who continue to improve once they reach their late 20's.

It is not unreasonable therefore for people to be suspicious of the reasons behind giving "false" ages.

I posted a link to the thread, where Mr. Canova wanted to debunk all the "conspiracy theories" surrounding African athletes.

http://www.letsrun.com/phptest/flat_read.php?thread=2380221&page=2

The thread ended quickly, after a Sorbian endurance athlete posted an experience from his encounter with Miss Chepkemei:

"You might be write when you say that Susan Chepkemei was suspende taking cought medecine. I feel sorry for that, I wish they caught her when she was doing EPO. She still didn't get what she deserves.

I have been keeping my mouth closed for years, but I had to respond on your posting since I can't stand anyone defending people doing drugs for years.

I happened to stay with Susan in the same house in 2004. At that time there were only my family (my wife and 2 years old child, both of which are not athletes), I and Susan at the house. Not to mention that one day in the fridge my two year old accidently found around 15 injections 10000IU of EPO each. When owner of the house, who was on long vacation, came back and discovered the same thing in the fridge, asked Susan to take her "staff" somewhere else and also asked her to leave the house. For those five weeks Susan made about $40000-$50000 running races in USA.

So, please stop defending her."

I think this could be a nice point of this discussion.

What have we learned during the last days? For example, that a pregnant woman (1-4 months, according to differing Mr. Canova's claims) needs a stuff against infertility. And coaching has never been as simple as today.

"Hey, I discovered you were fast. I think you can run 3:20."

"O.K. I will run it!"

Don't be ludicrous, Canova. Quit athletics, until they catch you and you are baffled. My recommendation: Become a fantasy writer. Start writing fish stories like "Snowhite and seven fast-improving Kembois".

You may have had some friend in WADA, who could save you, but you forgot one thing: the power of statistical analysis. This identifies all your champions as cheats. Their "hidden qualities" don't improve anymore, because they already stagnated before, and EPO won't help them in training.

You must dope at least 10 comparable talented guys to erase the striking, unparalleled development in endurance times during the last 15 years. But WADA will give you only a little chance now. All the stellar times, from the 800 to the 10 000 m, have been falling down during the last 4 years.

drivel bump

Susan Cepkemei is representative of all athletes? And you take one anonymous poster's word over that of a known and well established public figure in the sport, because the former's writing fits your data better than that of the latter?

By your statistical analysis, you would conclude that most athletes after WWII were on drugs, given the numerous revisions to world records in the postwar era, or that all the sprinters and jumpers doped in 1968 given all the world records set in Mexico City, or that all blacks in general must be doping given how they've replaced whites as the dominant sprinter in the last sixty years. Is that right?

Why do you even ask Canova anything? He's as close to an expert as you could possibly get but you already have your mind made up. There is nothing Canova could say or do to convince you otherwise so why even ask the question if you're not interested in learning?

Canova lost any chance of credibilitry when he proclaimed that EPO wouldn't really help the top Kenyans. He's like a public service announcement for High Schoolers telling them how bad steroids are and that they don't really work......and oh yeah, Bill Clinton didn't inhale.

Big difference between steroids and EPO.

As far as the EPO: if I have a computer with 2 GB of RAM and I add 2GB more, I could probably expect to see big performance gains. If I were to go from 16GB to 18GB, probably not much at all since there's only so much the system can use.

These ridiculously talented East Africans are already at the top of pyramid when it comes to their cardiovascular system. For many, the greatest benefit to drug use may be a placebo effect. There's no real way to know because drugs like EPO aren't tested on these East African super talents.

Would you believe Johan Bruynel if he told you no one doped in Astana, Discovery channel and US postal service?

moron

the context is for elite runners

go look at rubra vera - i've venesected a clinic with haemoglobins of 20+ every month in order to keep them alive

non were 12'37 guys

apart from tadesse

who are they ?

show me 7'25/12'45/26'30

imbecile

do you know any physiology at all ???

this is the simple follow of the sigmoid dissociation curve, with 2 3 DPG + some adaptation

adapatation is genetic

& moron, this does bring a "sports advantage"

moron

i already said it's effective

why on earth repeat me ???

at what baseline 10k time ??

show extrapolation from a natural 27'20

idiot

how many times has it been posted :

"with bumetanide cover"

do you have a f***ing clue about medicine at all ???

moron

rieti track is easy to explain if you have a brain :

not for rudisha

i heard that bullshit after wilson's 1'41.83 when his pb was 1'42.5

he beat it 3 more times

yego ran a time in keeping with his ovett-like tenacity - try to win - times not important

if/when rudisha goes 1'41.5, yego will be up there with low-1'42

excuse me ???

i'm talking to a moron with no knowledge of physiology or medicine or athletics & the imbecile is trying to claim "sophistication" with this drivel ???

Ventolin, you're such a comedy character.

Moron, imbecile, idiot, moron, moron, idiot, moron....

Made me laugh.

I have thought for some time that the Epo Brothers were juicers. Surprised that there was so little said about it. The 5k & 10k records are as illegitimate as the womens 100m record and out of reach for non-drugged athletes.

I'm more or less totally oblivious to professional cycling.

drivel

most parents of those born in villages make an annual pilgramage to nearest town to register births/deaths/marriages

no

if it's 2'43 each km, yes, but we are seeing over-ambitious at 2'40/2'41 aiming for 7'52, with following 2'43/2'42 & fading to 2'45/2'44

these are at best 7'56 guys

magnificent

but having to settle for 7'58

complete moron

kennster set 7'30wjr whilst x-countrying & injuries scuppered track forays initially

if you had a f***ing clue, back then we were saying 7'25/12'45/26'30 as soon as he gets right opportunity

tergat ???

you are a complete f***ing imbecile

5 times x-country champ & imo, hardest man ever to step on a track

the guy couda run 26'10 - 26'15 in '00, but initial 5k was too slow in sydney to break geb

no

it did give false results

wada had link to a sponsored french study proclaiming infallibilty of a +ve test from at least '01 onwards

it got pulled after bernie's case...

if you are crapping on about yego - learn idiot

test was +ve in urine but blood tests not carried out at the time to act as back-up & therefore +ve result voided

moron

v02max has body-weight included - look at :

ml/kg.min

do not offer drivel about "homunculous" in kenyans

how on earth woud that drivel explain rudy & yego running 1'42 ???

v02max is one small part of equation

top runners have had values from 68 - 88 & some have runner quicker with low values than higher ones

you have to learn some physiology moron

just as/more important than v02max is

lactate tolerance

this is why 70 vo2max guys can run 3'26 or 7'20 & 85 guys can't

this is more than likely to be genetic

read above

drivel

provide documented proof of an elite east african testing +ve for epo

show them & their times

this post confirms you are a complete & utter f***ing moron

it is a training aid, nothing more !

it is given in winter months to boost erythrocytes during hard aerobic training, the beneficiary of which will be seen in summer from better aerobic capacity

only an idiot takes it in summer when testing is much more frequent & training is much less & just fine-tuning for races

Hello, mister, do you have a master's degree from vulgar expressions? You should work better on your polite conversation, because I don't understand almost anything of your perplexed "arguments".

"moron. the context is for elite runners.

go look at rubra vera - i've venesected a clinic with haemoglobins of 20+ every month in order to keep them alive.

non were 12'37 guys"

What is your point? What does it mean "I have venesected a clinic"? Was your clinic flooded with blood and you broke a window to get it out?

I really don't understand. Explain it to me, please. I concluded that no testing had showed that East Africans would have a higher hemoglobine concentration or higher hematocrit than Europeans. Neither untrained, nor trained elite runners. Neither at altitude, nor at sea level. I replied to the comment claiming that Africans "may have at close to upper limit haematocrit", which is not true. I really don't understand, what's happening in your head.

"apart from tadesse.

who are they ?"

Do you have any data on elite Africans? Show me something, please! Data on elite Kenyans are known. They don't differ from Europeans.

"imbecile. do you know any physiology at all ???

this is the simple follow of the sigmoid dissociation curve, with 2 3 DPG + some adaptation.

adapatation is genetic.

& moron, this does bring a "sports advantage"

The saturation of hemoglobin in Ethiopians living at 3530 m above sea level was 95.3%. The saturation of hemoglobin in Ethiopians living at sea level was 96.7%. What a sports advantage does 1.4% increase in oxygen saturation bring to Ethiopians at sea level, in your wild imagination?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139295/

Isn't it an imbecile question?

We can't say, if Ethiopians have any "sports advantage", until the mechanism of their high oxygen saturation is known. But obviously, the stable oxygen saturation alone can bring no benefit at sea level. And VO2 max. values of East Africans don't suggest that there would be any cardiorespiratory advantage either.

"moron.

i already said it's effective.

why on earth repeat me ???"

I said it was effective, too. So we both said that it was effective. What is your point?

"at what baseline 10k time ?? show extrapolation from a natural 27'20"

I don't know an extrapolation from natural 27'20 via blood infusion. But I know an extrapolation from natural 28:00 via EPO doping.

26:30.

Hopefully it will help you.

"idiot.

how many times has it been posted :

"with bumetanide cover".

do you have a f***ing clue about medicine at all ???"

I have never doped athletes with blood infusion. You must be a much more qualified expert than me. But the fact that an unreasonable increase in hematocrit via excessive infusion of thickened blood may lead to thrombosis is simple and easy to understand. Isn't it?

But considering that you list a diuretic in connection with blood infusion, we may have misunderstood each other a bit. That's understandable, because you are not an idiot, aren't you?

"moron. rieti track is easy to explain if you have a brain :

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=27657&highlight=trees

"

It's trees, dear Watson? Maybe yes, maybe not. So what? I have read the thread recently, too.

What does it change on the fact that the times run in Rieti strongly deviate from the usual performances of athletes? I responded to an argument that the 800 m had been very fast this year. My point was that the times had been run in Rieti, which is a track producing unusually fast times and thus the times may not be representative.

Is my explanation enough logical?

"not for rudisha. i heard that bullshit after wilson's 1'41.83 when his pb was 1'42.5"

Maybe. But Kipketer belonged to the same generation of stellar EPO-dopers like Komen, Tergat or Gebre. So this debate is baseless.

"excuse me ??? i'm talking to a moron with no knowledge of physiology or medicine or athletics"

Please?

Now I am not only disgusted from the pharmaceutical farce on track, but I am even afraid of the dopers' lives. Hopefully dr. Rosa is at least better qualified than others.

Canova certainly is an accomplished coach, but, like you, why he claims that EPO would not aid an Ethiopian or Kenyan baffles me. Is there some science to show this? If so, I think that it would be wonderful news because it would end the type of arguement going on here.

I understand that tempers can get riled up when someone speculates about drug use, but I hope that we can stop the childish name calling.

Another point that baffles me is why Czechguy is bent more out of shape over drug cheats from Africa. I'm from the US and to tell you the truth, I would be much more upset over a drug cheat from the US than one from Africa. I would expect that a fellow Kenyan would be more upset were another Kenyan were to use drugs, especially given the fierce level of competition there.

After all, it was Graham who ratted out Conte in the Balco scandal, as they were squabbling over the same athletes.

Should I reply to everything you post here, Mr. Idiot (or what's your true name?).

First, the birthdates are fabricated. I read a story about a Kenyan runner, who simply made up his birthdate, because it was not known. That's a common practice.

Second, nobody knows, if Bekele set a junior record. Who knows, if he were really a junior?

"complete moron. kennster set 7'30wjr whilst x-countrying & injuries scuppered track forays initially"

That's not so important. You can argue with injuries, the death of his wife or whatever, but in the end, 26:17 is a safe EPO-sphere. Bekele's manager is Hermens. Chepkemei's manager is Hermen's, too. Bekele's brother trains in the group of dr Rosa, who dopes his people with EPO.

"tergat ??? you are a complete f***ing imbecile.

5 times x-country champ & imo, hardest man ever to step on a track"

Tergat trains with dr Rosa, who dopes his athletes with EPO. The end of Tergat's story.

All the achievments you describe happened after 1995, when his stellar improvement began.

"the guy couda run 26'10 - 26'15 in '00"

No. He couldn't. A new EPO test was announced and nobody got under 27:00 that year.

"no. it did give false results. wada had link to a sponsored french study proclaiming infallibilty of a +ve test from at least '01 onwards."

I am aware of one false result in a West European athlete. Naturally, reportedly false.

"if you are crapping on about yego - learn idiot.

test was +ve in urine but blood tests not carried out at the time to act as back-up & therefore +ve result voided"

Yes. I am aware of it. It was a "technicality". Didn't you dope her actually?

Blah blah blah... Have you ever heard about allometric equations of VO2 max.?

"drivel. provide documented proof of an elite east african testing +ve for epo. show them & their times"

I don't have East Africans, but I do have a large list of North Africans busted for EPO. But of course, East Africans, who ran faster times, must be clean. That's common sense. Or they simply store EPO in their fridges as a sort of placebo.

But do you know what's interesting? Most of their countrymen can't get close to their times even after 15 years. Is the endurance talent in East Africa unevenly distributed? You know, from time to time, some exceptional athlete set a world record that was out of reach of the elite of that time. But he showed the border of human limits and others followed him within 10-15 years. However, nothing of this sort happens today. The times of the stellar runners suddenly exploded within 2-3 years, but the rest of the world's elite not only stagnates, but their times tend to fall down during the recent years. Why? I would say that there must be no particular interest in running in Africa. Otherwise I really don't understand, why the Africans behind Geb and Bekele don't want to achive such performances.

"this post confirms you are a complete & utter f***ing moron

it is a training aid, nothing more ! it is given in winter months to boost erythrocytes during hard aerobic training, the beneficiary of which will be seen in summer from better aerobic capacity"

EPO is not steroids. It doesn't help to increase performance permanently. All the erythrocytes gained from EPO die within 3-4 months. The same with altitude training. This is why EPO is used AFTER THE TRAINING PERIOD, shortly before season, to further boost acquired aerobic capacity. Why would you need it during training, unecessarily risking a positive test?

I would be very grateful to you, if you argued with some meaningful points. I can't really uselessly waste my time here.

I think you feel very well that you try to defend a lost case. Which makes you angry.

"Another point that baffles me is why Czechguy is bent more out of shape over drug cheats from Africa."

I am not. But the doping abuse in mOROCCO/Kenya/Ethiopia has destroyed athletics in a way that can be compared only to the former drug system in GDR. In comparison with this, the Jamaican experimentation with the new undetectable anabolic drug is a children's game.

CzechGuy wrote:

"the guy couda run 26'10 - 26'15 in '00"

No. He couldn't. A new EPO test was announced and nobody got under 27:00 that year.

That probably has more to do with the fact that the Olympics were in late September that year, putting the Brussels 10000m at a much different time of the season than it's normally found.

In 1999, a year before the EPO test was available, only two men broke 27:00, both a Brussels in early September following the World Championships. One of them was convicted drug cheat Mohammed Mourhit. With only two men breaking the 27:00 minute barrier before the availability of an EPO test, while eight men broke the barrier in 2005, after several years of EPO testing had been under way, and prominent cheats such as Mourhit and Boulami had been caught. The difference can, perhaps, largely be attributed to Bekele's world record in Brussles that "dragged" many under the 27:00 barrier, something that wouldn't have happened without the pacemaking needed for such an attempt. From that, I'm not seeing the connection you seem to make with drugs and times before and after the institution of testing.

The sudden, often enormous fall of performances in 2000 is evident in all distances. In the 10 000 m, it was always only 2-3 men, who ran under 27:00. With the exception of 2000-2001. In 2002, happy doping began again, very probably under a better care, but Mourhit obviously understimated WADA's abilities.

You should ask Canova, what a drug they used between 2004-2005. Obviously, it doesn't work anymore and the times have been falling disastrously since that time, especially in the 1500 m, where the squadra of North African EPO-cheats have been almost completely destroyed.