Could Coe had gone sub 13 in the 5000m

Harris was an awesome road runner - 13.35 and 27.56

he was a bit bonkers too, but that's another story.

Bingo jim wrote:

Harris was an awesome road runner - 13.35 and 27.56

he was a bit bonkers too, but that's another story.

pray tell

You mean: "If anyone is questioning Coe's lies about tempo runs..."

119 wrote:If anyone is questioning Coe's aerobic ability they should take into account the 45 (maybe it was 43) minute 10 mile tempo he claims to have done in one of his books.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Coe's best 3000 was not that great at 7:54.32, so just because he killed a workout of 800 repeats, it does not translate automatically to a great 3000 or 5000.

That 7.5k road race time is intriguing. That's one and a half times 5k in 14 minutes.

His 3k pb was a winter run on the wooden boards of Cosford. It wasn't meant to be great. It would have been used to maintain a competitive edge out of season.

The 7.5k road race was in Vigevano 1980, which he won again in 1983 over a shorter course of 6.7km in 18:28 (13:46 pace)beating Bordin amongst others. He also ran the fastest leg in the Cranford Road relays in '84, when he covered 3.75 miles in 16:16, which is sub 13:30 5k pace, for just over 6000m.

middle distance wrote:

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Coe's best 3000 was not that great at 7:54.32, so just because he killed a workout of 800 repeats, it does not translate automatically to a great 3000 or 5000.

That 7.5k road race time is intriguing. That's one and a half times 5k in 14 minutes.

His 3k pb was a winter run on the wooden boards of Cosford. It wasn't meant to be great. It would have been used to maintain a competitive edge out of season.

The 7.5k road race was in Vigevano 1980, which he won again in 1983 over a shorter course of 6.7km in 18:28 (13:46 pace)beating Bordin amongst others. He also ran the fastest leg in the Cranford Road relays in '84, when he covered 3.75 miles in 16:16, which is sub 13:30 5k pace, for just over 6000m.

Bullshit!

For a start, the Cranford Road Relay course was never 3.75 miles long - I’d have been worthy of a sub 14 min 5000 had it have been.

The best estimate for the course was 3 miles 6-700 yards.

And if Coe’s time of 16.16 in 84 represents sub 13.30 pace over 5000 - just what sort of time over 5000 could Roger Clarke, (Bristol) the course record holder, in a fantastically inspired run of 15.25 represent?

100% Busted

fgfg wrote:

No to 2012 wrote:

Bullshit!

For a start, the Cranford Road Relay course was never 3.75 miles long - I’d have been worthy of a sub 14 min 5000 had it have been.

The best estimate for the course was 3 miles 6-700 yards.

And if Coe’s time of 16.16 in 84 represents sub 13.30 pace over 5000 - just what sort of time over 5000 could Roger Clarke, (Bristol) the course record holder, in a fantastically inspired run of 15.25 represent?

100% Busted

Lol! Busted for what?

I'm just quoting what it said in "International Running Guide 1985" (by Mel Watman) on P.41:-

"...Coe made his racing comeback (March 31) after illness which ruined his 1983 season by clocking the fastest 3 3/4 mile stage time (16:16) in an English club road relay"

I haven't personally gone out with a trundle and wheel and measured it, but trusted the words of a former Editor of AW (when it was a decent mag) and one of the world's leading statisticians.

As you use the word "estimate" yourself, then you don't know the exact distance either.

The time would be equivalent to sub 13:30 pace if the distance was 3 3/4. If it isn't that far, then it just goes to show you can't always believe what you read in books and from so called experts.

Could Coe had gone sub 13 in the 5000m?

He didn't like the distance, so the answere must be that maybe physically he was capable, but mentally he wasn't.

Both you and the previous poster, "middle distance," quoted one sentence of my post and totally avoided my argument.

Of course just because he didn't break 14:00 doesn't mean he couldn't do it. The point is that there is no reason at all to believe that he could have broken 13:00. None really. Aouita barely broke 13:00 and he was much more of an endurance guy than Coe, and even had a faster 1500 PR.

I know so many of you guys worship the ground Coe walks on, and I would not say that there is no possible way he could have done it if it had been the sole focus of his career, but there is no evidence to think that he would have approached that time other than a few mythical workout stories.

middle distance wrote:

His 3k pb was a winter run on the wooden boards of Cosford. It wasn't meant to be great. It would have been used to maintain a competitive edge out of season.

The 7.5k road race was in Vigevano 1980, which he won again in 1983 over a shorter course of 6.7km in 18:28 (13:46 pace)beating Bordin amongst others. He also ran the fastest leg in the Cranford Road relays in '84, when he covered 3.75 miles in 16:16, which is sub 13:30 5k pace, for just over 6000m.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers watching Coe get lapped in an indoor 3000 at a major meet. Undoubtedly, he wasn't in peak racing form, but he didn't seem like the kind of guy who enjoyed getting humiliated on the track.

Beating Bordin in 1983 was like beating Rodgers in 1973. In 1983, Bordin was essentially just a construction worker with some running talent, while Coe was an international superstar and full-time professional athlete.

I have no idea whether Coe could have run under 13:00. Watching Coe float through a world record in the mile, it is hard to imagine such a thoroughbred getting crushed by an earthbound workhorse like Bob Kennedy over 5k. But I've never seen anything other than reports of mythical training sessions to support the view that Coe could have been the first sub-13 5k runner if he had just set his sights on that goal.

I didn't avoid your argument at all. I just made a point that was different to yours.

Of course with almost no track evidence to assess his ability at 5000m (which I believe is what you were pointing out) then a lot of what anyone says on the subject is hypothetical (like the vast majority of thread on here) and subjective. It is impossible to prove one way or the other.

What I will say is that his distance wins on the roads; Vigevano twice, and the Loughrea 4 miles, are NOT mythical. They are facts. Why they don't prove Coe could have broken 13mins, they do prove that he was much faster over 5k than his 14:06 pb implies.

As for Horwill's published accounts of Coe training with him and Hutchings, why would he make it up?

If anything, it makes his own athlete, Hutchings, look mediocre. Why would he do this?

The reason why Aouita is deemed "more of an endurance guy" is because he had a serious attempt at 5000m and 10,000m. It was his raison d'etre to show what an amazing range he had. He even claimed to have run 400 in 46.9 (in training) in '81 and 45.9 in 1991!! Are we to believe these figures, which would make him as fast as Coe.

What's to say that Coe wasn't doing similar things in training as Aouita in the over-distance department.

I think a previous poster made a very pertinent point. Coe didn't like the distance, so perhaps he didn't have the desire or temperament to go out and do it.

13.30 definitely

13.20 probably

13.10 possibly

13.00 unlikely - but not impossible

Walker, Coe, Ovett, they all found out eventually that 1500 is different from 5000, that they over estimated their aerobic ability a bit, when they were actually in oxygen debt in much of their mile races but could simply handle it.

In the 5000 you can't cover for B+ aerobic ability using your anaerobic talents. That is against A grade talent.

In doing the required large volumes of work at 58-62 seconds per lap, Coe would have not been able to simultaneously do that much quality at 50 seconds per 400, therefore the 800 would suffer.

Meanwhile, Coe's 1500 abilities would probably remain intact, and even possibly come to resemble El-G a bit, stronger thorough-out, but less turbo-charge.

So yes, Coe could do what Moorcroft could do, particularly since Moorcroft could not even train properly with ultra calf stiffness problems.

At the end of the day, those big talking milers are knocked down to size when they run the fast 5000 and the reality sets in.

Whether Coe could have gone sub 13 would have depended on if he had Folgers in his cup.

Sir Bastion Newbold wrote:

13.30 definitely

13.20 probably

13.10 possibly

13.00 unlikely - but not impossible

^----- sums it up best

a list of prs

**************

Distance Mark Date

400 m 46.87 1979 & 45.5 relay leg (1979)

800 m 1:41.73 1981

1000 m 2:12.18 1981

---------------------------

1500 m 3:29.77 1986

Mile 3:47.33 1981

2000 m 4:58.84 1982

3000 m 7:54.32 1979

5000 m 14:06.2 1980

clearly, he started to struggle after 1,000m

the 5,000m is very weak, even for Seb. I'd say a sub 13:30 definitely. 13:15 being around his eventual pr had he focused on the 5,000m. The guy just couldn't wrap his mind around running that fast for 12.5 laps. I don't blame him. How many 4:15 guys can't break 15:30 for the 5k? a lot.

In college, I had outdoor PRs of 1:57 (open 800m), 3:07 (1200m relay split), 4:00 (1500m), and 8:53 (3000m, after doubling back from a 1:57 4x8 relay split), yet my PR for 5000m on the track was only 15:32.

Yet, in XC I regularly ran 8k/5mi in the mid to high 25s, but ran many more miles/week in the fall (75-80) vs. the spring (55-60)...

I should have been MUCH better at 5000m, at least 15:10, if not 15:00. I could always get to 2 miles in around 9:40-9:45, then would start slowing down significantly, especially the last 1200m.

Go figure.

giffypop17 wrote:

I'd say anyone who could run 1500 under 3:30 probably could have if they had taken a healthy year to focus on it.

No damned way this is true.

Example: Andrew Wheating is very close to getting under 3:30. He could not get within light years of a sub 13 5000.

Workout anecdotes and myriad excuses for an absolute lack of remarkable times at any distance over one mile . . . simply do not outweigh the big drop-off from 800 to 1500 and absolute lack of remarkable times at any distance over one mile. I think it very unlikely he could run faster than 13:10.

bangalangadanga wrote:

Sir Bastion Newbold wrote:

13.30 definitely

13.20 probably

13.10 possibly

13.00 unlikely - but not impossible

^----- sums it up best

a list of prs

**************

Distance Mark Date

400 m 46.87 1979 & 45.5 relay leg (1979)

800 m 1:41.73 1981

1000 m 2:12.18 1981

---------------------------

1500 m 3:29.77 1986

Mile 3:47.33 1981

2000 m 4:58.84 1982

3000 m 7:54.32 1979

5000 m 14:06.2 1980

clearly, he started to struggle after 1,000m

So the double Olympic 1500m champion and 3 times world record holder at the mile "struggled" after 1000m did he? ROFL!