not having it wrote:
He is still a liar and a fraud for omitting to tell the truth if he did dope.
Right. And he's a murderer if he shot someone to death and hid the body. But there's that matter of "if."
not having it wrote:
He is still a liar and a fraud for omitting to tell the truth if he did dope.
Right. And he's a murderer if he shot someone to death and hid the body. But there's that matter of "if."
"Zero east-Africans" caught! ?
First of all, what about Chepchumba, Bitok, Stephen Cherono (Saif Saaed Shaheen), Chephemei, Cheramei, Ngugi, etc.?
Secondly, the poster you replied to was talking about "black" athletes generally, not just East Africans, in response to someone who said that white people weren't capable of doing what the likes of Viren did without drugs.
I don't think that any one "ethnic" group is more likely to dope than any other, and I think that was the point he was making.
Watt? wrote:
Sir Lance-alot wrote:I really don't see transfusing one's own blood back into one any stranger than breathing in synthetic air.
.
How about a world of difference? Take out a pint of blood and store it. After your body naturally recovers that blood you put that pint back and now you have a pint extra. If all an athlete had to do was move to altitude to get the same advantages of doping, then they would do that instead of doping, which potentially put your life in danger. Ever wonder why so many Tour de France guys have mysteriously died in the prime of their lives? I don't think an altitude tent can kill you.
A) breathing in synthetic air in order to force your body to produce more EPO while sleeping is NOT natural, no matter how you try and spin it.
b) TDF riders I thought died from excess EPO injections.
c) I am pretty sure an altitude tent could kill you. You dial up the altitude too high, or spend too much time in there, or don't acclimate, or other factors, and I am sure it would be quite dangerous.
d) altitude tents and living at altitude are not the same. Firstly, in the second case, the composition of the air is changed (more N), while in the second, there is just less pressure. Also, people who live at altitude generally train at altitude which, can be a hindrance for some. But altitude tent users sleep at altitude and train a sea level, which is extremely hard to do in the real world.
Do you want to explain me why did you put Stephen Cherono in your list ? It's very clear that you speak without knowing. Before speaking, you must be informed, and for being informed, you need TO WANT TO BE INFORMED. Speaking about something you don't know, you can only say stupidities. That is exactly what you did.
Viren is as guilty as Bekele
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
c) I am pretty sure an altitude tent could kill you. You dial up the altitude too high, or spend too much time in there, or don't acclimate, or other factors, and I am sure it would be quite dangerous.
I didn't think they adjusted that high to present any actual danger. You don't really have to adjust to 12,000 feet, which I thought was near their max but I'm not sure. Above about 15,000 there would be a slight chance of an embolism or something, right? You have peaked my curiosity.
There is no proof of doping. None. What some of you suggest is a far cry from even being circumstantial.
As a result, I do not think Viren blood doped. Thankfully, some of you have dispelled the false notion that Viren did poorly in non-Olympic years.
I think the veracity of the statement of Viren not directly stating "I did not dope" versus "I did nothing wrong" needs to be questioned. What were the situations surrounding the statement? Who asked him, and what did they ask him? In Finnish or English? This dwelling on the semantics of the answer is ridiculous unless you know everything about it.
In any case, Viren really has nothing to prove to any of us. One of the greatest.
TheNorseMan wrote:Thankfully, some of you have dispelled the false notion that Viren did poorly in non-Olympic years.
False? Maybe, but it's not a slam dunk. In truth, Viren was remarkably unimpressive between his glory years of '72 and '76.
A summation of his actual record:
1973
5000: not ranked in top 10 for the year; was 8th fastest performer (13:28)
10000: ranked 7th; had best time of 28:17; was very inconsistent, finishing 11th at the World Games
1974
2 mile: had 12th best performance of the year (8:25.8)
5000: ranked 5th for year; had best of 13:24.6; had only 1 significant win, finished 3rd at European Champs
10000: ranked 9th for year; best of 28:22.6; finished 7th at European Champs
1975
5000: not ranked; was 28th best performer for the year at 13:34.6
10000: not ranked; was 24th best performer for the year at 28:11.4
So, how good is this between-Olympics record? By world class standards, it's merely fair--nothing more.
And then, miraculously, he was a world-beater again by the summer of '76.
I've said it before, but I admire many, many Olympic "losers" far more than I admire Viren.
All this began with Vaatainen. He's pretty key to this story.
I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt because I dont know any thing about him. However it is kind of obvious that he was doing from what people have said on this thread.
So Viren ran 28:11 in an off year, only 30 seconds off the recent WR, when it didn't even matter.
That sure blows to hell the fools who said he didn't do anything between Olympics.
John Ngugi did not ever fail any doping test, except he refused the idiot John Whetton who barged into his home unannounced. There were no Kenyan representatives present, no credendials presented, and Ngugi did not even know who he was. Ngugi did nothing wrong, yet still they gave him a suspension which ended his magnificent career.
J.R. wrote:
So Viren ran 28:11 in an off year, only 30 seconds off the recent WR, when it didn't even matter.
That sure blows to hell the fools who said he didn't do anything between Olympics.
One "decent" performance in 3-1/2 years proves that? Baloney. Some years "matter" more than others, certainly, but in that period every year had significance. The bottom line is pretty simple: in the '72 and '76 summer seasons, Viren was on top of the world. Otherwise, his ENTIRE career adds up to a minor athletics footnote.
By the way, the August 1976 Olympic Preview issue of Track and Field News states the following in its predictions for the 10,000:
"Lasse Viren has seemingly regained his double gold medal winning form of '72, and with head-scratching suddenness. Since setting the WR in this event (after falling!), Viren has produced nothing earthshaking for the last 3 years. Then in June, a 27:43.0 (6th fastest time ever), his second best. He has obviously overcome the major sinus and injury problems of recent years."
No one can pretend that Viren was remotely the figure in '73, '74, and '75 that he'd been in '72. Perhaps it was due to his "major sinus and injury problems." And maybe the "head-scratching suddenness" is actually the primary issue here...
Something stinks with Viren's career and most of us have a pretty strong intuition as to what that might be.
If Viren was going to dope or blood dope or do anything else that's nasty why would he only do it in Olympic years? Why have the down years when he could be on top all the time?
HRE wrote:
If Viren was going to dope or blood dope or do anything else that's nasty why would he only do it in Olympic years? Why have the down years when he could be on top all the time?
No matter how one slices and dices it, the Olympics were the biggest thing--by far--for athletes of the period. (Although we need to remember that there were other, very significant championship events, including the European and Commonwealth champs.) There was very little money to be made on "the circuit" as compared to today--the prestige of an Olympic medal was far more "valuable." I also suspect that the actual mechanics of the blood-doping regime weren't much fun, and not something one would want to do as a matter of week-in, week-out routine.
Bottom line, however, is: we know that Viren cared alot about the Olympics. How much he actually cared about the rest of it, I can't pretend to say.
I will also say that blood-doping was NOT illegal in this period--in part because there was absolutely no test for it. I suspect very strongly that Viren did it, but I'd never call him a "cheater," for that reason. There is no question, however that what blood-doping that was done, was done secretly, with some clear sense of "guilt," and in an explicit effort to gain an advantage on the competition. Whether that bothers us today, all these years later, will vary from person to person.
Canova Renato wrote:
Do you want to explain me why did you put Stephen Cherono in your list ? It's very clear that you speak without knowing. Before speaking, you must be informed, and for being informed, you need TO WANT TO BE INFORMED. Speaking about something you don't know, you can only say stupidities. That is exactly what you did.
I apologise profusely! I made a MISTAKE. Sorry!
I had been reading a link about Ambrose Bitok
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3084110.stmin which Kiptanui was trying to do some damage limitation at the time concerning a couple of positive tests for Kenyan runners, when I scrolled down and it mentioned something along the lines of why the Kenyans had "cleared Cherono to run in the World Championships". As the rest of the article had been about PED positive testing, I mistakenly thought they had cleared Cherono after a positive test.
Again I apologise. I can see now that it was concerning his defection to Qatar. I apologise if I've offended anyone else.
Canova Renato wrote:
I was the first time in US in 1974. At that time, I was in Los Angeles, and it was possible to buy anabolic steroids in the Supermarket, like today is possible fot vitamins and integrators.
I don't think that we can say, TODAY, the athletes using these steroids were MENTALLY DOPERS.
Today, using CREATIN is ok. May be that, after 5 years, somebody decides that Creatin is doping : can we say that all the athletes using creatin today are dopers ?
We must look at every era with the eyes of that era, not with the eyes of today.
At the beginning of 1970, all the Finnish athletes used the blood transfusion, and, at that time, ALL THE WORLD looked at the Finnish Scientists as the best example for supporting athletes and performances.
This procedure was put outlaw in 1985, but from the beginning of 80 somebody started to fight against it (for example, Sandro Donati in Italy). We had Italian runners using it (as Alberto Cova, Scartezzini, Antibo), and somebody that refused (as Panetta, Mei, Bordin). When this procedure was put outlaw, everybody ended to do it, and Antibo started to improve a lot....
Everybody knew about the Finnish system, so Viren never denied to use. He told that "never he did something wrong" for the laws and the mentality of that period.
Different is to CHEAT today, using something not allowed or, worst, TO TRY TO BUILD SOMETHING NEW, NOT POSSIBLE TO FIND (Balco).
The first using to change his blood was the famous cyclist Jacques Anquetil, in the early 60.
The marathon runners of the beginning of the Century used to get strychnine (one of the most powerful poissons) for not feeling fatigue.
The runners of the period immediately after the second War used to get MICOREN for supporting their heart.
The science at that time was not advanced like today, and many things were still to be discovered.
Personally, I never gave anything to my athletes, because I believe that the most important "dope" is the personal motivation, and I work on this point. I think that, working very hard with continuity, it's possible to bring your body to a level of performance unimaginable, the problem is to maintain the motivation for long time.
So,my idea is that the weakness of the athletes is expecially under the PSYCHOLOGICAl POINT OF VIEW, and they want to receive support from something that they can get in order to become sure to increase their training.
Different is the situation about the increase of MUSCULAR POWER and EXPLOSIVITY : in this case, using the normal training without any support (allowed or forbidden) cannot produce the same result. It's not a case that THERE ARE NO RECORDS IN THROWING AFTER 1988, when the Antidoping started to be more serious against every type of steroid.
Mr. Canova,
I have an old tape of the 1988 Olympic Marathon in which Bordin took the lead in the final miles of the race to win the gold. I still watch it before every Marathon I run for inspiration.
On the tape the announcers say that Bordin had been using a procedure where they added blood to his system before the race for a boost. I'll have to go back and see what they said exactly, but they weren't saying that what he had done was wrong. Instead they were complimenting the ingenuity. At the time I didn't think much of it but it raises an eyebrow now every time I hear it.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to cast a shadow on Bordin and I am greatly respectful of your accomplishments as a coach. As I said, I still watch the 1988 Marathon as inspiration. Can you shed some light on their comments? I know Frank Shorter did the commentary but I don't think he said anything about it. I think it was Jim Mckay or someone who really didn't know anything about running so maybe he mispoke?
I know nothing wrote:
Oh please get off your moral high horse. Just because it was not illegal at the time and other runners were doing it does not mean they were not cheaters. The point is, they were trying to get an unfair advantage. If their consciense was so free they would openly admit to doping during the peaks of their careers. Like during a post-race interview when the world was asking, "How did you just do that." Instead, the admissions did not come till decades later with the attached "We did nothing wrong." Yes, so innocent yet wise enough to keep their mouths shut. The Finns were cheaters and a disgrace to the Olympics and running. The Italians, and anybody else who doped were just as much of a disgrace to the sport. Those runners should have their medals stripped.
At the time it was:
-Not against the law
-Not in violation of any rules
Therefore, it was not cheating in any way, shape, or form.
Probably Shorter passed on his usual crap to McKay, who repeated the story with Frank's blessing.
YOU ARE SO STUPID THAT YOU CAN NOT EVEN READ.
I TOLD THE REASONS BEHIND VIREN`S MEDIOCRE (but still quite close to his best) PERFORMANCES BETWEEN OLYMPICS. HERE WE GO AGAIN:
Viren didn´t need doping (legal or illegal) to run pb´s of 7.43, 13.16 and 27.38. He was a phenomenal talent, running 13.55 when was 20years old with little training.
1973 was sub par because of lack of motivation (no big enough races) and training peace, -74 he ran a lot and trained hard but foot injury prevented the speedwork before european championships (was 3rd in ~13.25) and that injury forced him to go through big surgery and rehabilitation period which was the reason why -75 went by without real races. When he was back running, he was so eager that nothing couldn´t stop him.
SEE? There was a meeting between 10k and 5k races at Montreal, there they accused him beeing professional and later after 5000m race when bitter Kiwi´s had been given statements about Viren and blood doping, the journalists asked Viren what he had to say about it. He told them that he doesn´t even know what it is and asked the journalists tell him more about it. Also when they asked his secret he was so full of those questions that he said "reindeer milk" or "horny cows milk". He is very kind person but false arguments made him angry.
I never was the coach of Bordin. The coach was Luciano Gigliotti, also coaching Stefano Baldini,later.
However, I was with Gigliotti and Bordin for 10 months every year, and I know every thing about his training, because Lucio was a brother for me.
How I didn't have any problem in confirming that some Italian runner used the self-transfusion till 1984, when was legal (it was an official program of CONI, not for Track and Field only, with prof. Conconi in Ferrara), at the same time I can say that some athlete always refused any type of practice : Mei, Bordin and Panetta were always against every practice that was not natural.
Bordin, like Panetta, was a WILD type of runners. When he had headache, he refused to take some tablet, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE STRONGER THAN THE SICKNESS.
They were natural fighters, refusing to have any type of support. And many times they refused also some modern TECHNICAL SUPPORT : Panetta didn't like to use cardio, for example, and Gelindo never wanted to have some test on treadmill, also if the Italian scientists asked for it several times.
I want to give some data about Bordin, the last blood test he had in Italy before leaving to Seoul :
Hemoglobin 12.8 and Hematocrit 39.6.
This is one of the reasons because, personally, I don't believe in the effects of blood doping for top runners, that are able to increase their total volume of blood of about 20%, ONLY USING TRAINING (research from a group of Spanish and Denish scientists).
We had the case of ANTIBO, till 1984 under the program of Conconi, that, when finished this practice, started to improve a lot.
We have the case of Maurizio Damilano, that used this practice before European Championships 1982, and was his WORST season. When came back to the normal training, without any type of support, he won again WCh in 1987 and beated the WR of 30 km (till now WR).
If there are many cases of athletes improving with doping, I had a lot of cases of athletes at the top in the World WITHOUT any thing, and some case of athlete improving a lot many years AFTER using the blood transfusion.
So, in the case of Bordin, the commentator was very wrong, because he NEVER used any type of support for his activity.
Renato, I know this is slightly off-topic, but the BBC commentators today commented on the Olympic marathon in Seoul, saying how Charlie Spedding and many others had their drinks ruined by one of the leading runners, who was said to have purposely run his arm along the table to knock the other elites drinks off. They said they didn't want to mention him by name as he's famous and did very well in that race. Was that Bordin?