Duncan Kibet and James Kwambai : the role of Claudio Berardelli, and analysis of something new in training

Renato i need you to pass information to Claudio/Rosa for me .On tuesday evening i was very fortunate to be in a kenya airways flight from amsterdam to nairobi and in it was Duncan Kibet,Abel Kirui,Kwambai,bernard Kipyego(the winner of berlin) and a few others of those guys who raced at rotterdam( most of them from team rosa).I felt so sorry for the guys especially duncan who was so tired yet they were travelling in economy class,they had to cue in long cues ,the plane was so crammed,there were crying babies etc .Surely Rosa should have got this guys Business class or atleast use another airline.

i was awed however by how nice this guys are;they are genuinely the humblest and nicest guys you will ever meet.The funny thing is the way duncan was dressed( he was dressed like one of those american rappers and not an athlete at all);he is a very flambouyant guy,talkative and very charismatic.I aslo chatted alot with Abel Kirui who comes across as very ambitious and competitive .What surprised me the most is their size(i cant believe just how much TV magnifies people\'s sizes);those guys are slim and tiny,kibet in particular is very slim and Kirui is not as big/tall as he looks on the screen.

I told Duncan about some of the topics that have been on this website of late( obviously i was very diplomatic).On the other hand he was very level headed and was not overly fussed about people\'s extreme views.

Anyway,Renato i wanted to inform you so that you can let Claudio know that he should take better care of his athletes\' travelling arrengements in future.Atleast Bernard kipyego was in business class.

From reading lots of Renato's writings (inc the IAAF manual) over the years, my understanding of what renato means about recvovery/slow running, isn't that it isn't necessary to do it - just that it doesn't make you a better runner DIRECTLY - thats the special and specific training! the slow running helps you recover from the fast running and puts you in a position where your body can handle the hard work.

So when he says that 6' miling doesn't help a 2.06 marathoner, I don't believe he is saying that they shouldn't do it, just that that isn't directly what makes them the 2.06 marathoner (but it might just help them to perform the training that does allow them to run that fast!)

i.e. what makes a good runner; volume or specificity?

Canova would say "specificity"

Others would say, "volume"

opops wrote:

wellnow wrote:

Mileage is important but over rated, which is a point that gets missed by many runners. I've been saying this for a few years here, perhaps even Renato is starting to consider it may be true.

I like a lot of what Renato says, but up until now he has over stated the importance of mileage.

Somebody here is suffering from severe delusions of grandeur.

**********************************************

Think what you like, but if you don't like my posts maybe you will pay attention to the runner who runs 2.02 for the marathon off a maximum of 90 miles per week.

But then again, maybe you won't.

One way the Kenyans/Ethiopians and others (Moroccans) counter attack the problem of poor biomechanics from runnning slowly is to do most of their running at progressive speeds.

Time after time, in Iten (Kenya) and Assella (Ethiopia) one would see athltes go out for a steady run at a 'steady' pace, but notice that toward the end of the run, they (the athletes) would be moving at a much brisker pace, and in Iten (2500) this would be down to around 3.20 per km, and sometimes down to 3.10-3.15. Add to that, the hilly nature of the courses in Iten and Assella, and you have very good training effect for the runners.

Yes, the Ethiopians do spend more time on fundamental drills than the Kenyans, and some have concluded that this helps their velocity at the end of races, but that point is debatable.

Gebre often states that Ethiopia is 20 years behind Kenya in terms of economic development, but that, ironically, is not a bad thing, as it means the runners will be very motivated and hungry.

At the world cross, it was a rare occasion to see the normally phlegmatic Gebremariam smile - normally that is very rare, and it was just reward for this former Junior World cross winner, and highly consistent athlete, who often performs well in 'difficult' conditions. Last year in Addis we saw Gebremariam 'destroy' the Kenyans in a 10,000, held in very adverse conditions at the National stadium - torrential rains and wind - he won in 28:18 on day, when he relegated the Kenyans to times in the high 29's and 30's for the distance.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

Apply today - mature candidates welcome

Didn't Renato answer that question above, without referring to any science? "The goal is to be the support for [every] workout of higher intensity."A bigger base allows you to be more intense later -- no pseudo-science, just experience.If you re-read this thread, you will see Renato promises to explore the connection between volume and intensity, by contrasting "high volume" and "high quality with little volume" athletes who are at the top today.He also said: "The BASIC AEROBIC MILEAGE is the first step for building up the ENDURANCE. We need to increase it during the first 3-5 years of career, after is no more so important."If mileage was ever over-rated before, this thread promises to explain volume with a better perspective.

wellnow wrote:

What is Base building?

I guarantee that no-one on letsrun can answer that question without talking a load of pseudo-scientific bullcrap, the same old stuff that gets repeated over and over and over.

Mileage is important but over rated, which is a point that gets missed by many runners. I've been saying this for a few years here, perhaps even Renato is starting to consider it may be true.

I like a lot of what Renato says, but up until now he has over stated the importance of mileage. Improving running skill (better control of movements) is what running faster is mostly about. Aerobic capacity is mostly genetically determined, and only slightly trainable, BUT, most of us are already well enough trained most of the time that we can't improve our aerobic capacity in absolute terms.

Sr. Canova,

AMERICANS AND INJURY.

What do you advise an athlete returning from minor injury (2 weeks missed training), as this happens quite often in America? Or even post-baby for female athlete?

Can you give example of a Marathoner INTRODUCTION/REGENERATION TRAINING with Marathon several months away?

As far as i can see, this is the Coe/Martin/Horwill 5pace model of training working in 4 zones... each zone helping the other. pretty simple stuff.

Easy runs

faster runs

longer reps - 5k + 3k pace

shorter faster reps- race pace and faster

keep it mixed and you will run fast and progress well.

What I find confusing is that he suggests running at the upper end of recovery paces, yet in past he has said that 6min km pace was most effective for removing lactate. This is conflicting because he argues that 6min pace would hinder a runner biomechanically as it would alter the stride too much?

I seriously doubt that Canova ever stated that 6 min/KM pace was the best for recovery. You do realize that is 9:36 per mile, right? In fact, he has mentioned 6min/mile in this thread and 3:45-4 min/km, which translates to 6-6:24 min/mile as recovery paces.

Dear Renato,

Renato could you give a week in the fundamental phase for an 800 meter runner or a 1500 meter runner of the muscular type?

Are those general conditioning runs to be done as many as possible during basic conditioning to prepare the muscles to run fast (20 - 40 minutes at 3'00" to 3'15" per 1000 meter).

Do the lower mileage runners do this daily? Or just once a week?

Thank you,

Renato's training files are available here.

http://2008olympictrialsakatommyleonard.shutterfly.com/filecabinet

TRA wrote:

What I find confusing is that he suggests running at the upper end of recovery paces, yet in past he has said that 6min km pace was most effective for removing lactate. This is conflicting because he argues that 6min pace would hinder a runner biomechanically as it would alter the stride too much?

I believe he was referring to doing long runs at a very slow pace when he said it would alter stride. When doing very short recoveries such as 45 sec between 400s, 6 min/km may be the best recovery pace.

Taken from an older thread. Do you really think I make this stuff up?

What I referred about Kimwetich and "Jogo" Koskei is what really happened. When an athlete, able to transfer his sensations to the coach, tells you that "I feel better", you must use this regeneration when he wants and needs.

But I'm surprised that many don't understand the difference in regeneration AFTER VERY HARD LACTIC WORKOUTS (where the level can reach 20 mml), needing 2-4 days for recovering, and after a LONG FAST RUN of 35 km. In this case (that long run is at Threshold level or lower, and the lactate level doesn't overtake 4 mml), it's better to speak of re-integration of what we use during training : mineral salts,liquids, amino-acids.

So,in this case, to use LONG REGENERATION RUN can be useless, if not damageous.

You must always remember that, HIGHER IS THE INTENSITY, LONGER MUST BE THE RECOVERY.

So, if we have marathon runners as Kibet and Kwambai, they use a very high percentage of SPECIFIC MARATHON SPEED in their training : 80 km per week, it means a percentage of 60% of specific speed compared with the full volume.

In case of Marathon runners using high volume (220-240 km per week), the quantity of SPECIFIC TRAINING is lower (no more than 60 km per week), and the percentage VERY MUCH LOWER (25-30%).

If there are athletes needing this volume,there are athlete not needing it, too. Or, better, NOT NEEDING IT AT THE MOMENT.

I can give data regarding the average, during fundamental and special period, of the weekly km of Shaheen during the years :

2001 : 90

2002 : 120

2003 : 150

2004 : 180

2005 : 150

2006 : 130

But, at the same time, after building a very good aerobic base, the volume of specific high intensity training continued to grow.

One day of 2006, before running Zurich meeting (he was in a very better shape than when he bettered the WR in 2004), we used a SPECIFIC BLOCK like this :

Morning : 4 x 1600m (rec. 4'30") in 3'56" / 3'59" / 3'58" / 3'57"

Afternoon : 2 sets of 5 x 300m (rec. 30" between tests and 2'30" between sets), average of the first 5 : 38"3, times of the second set : 39" - 37"3 - 37"2 - 37"3 - 37".

Somebody can think that, during a week including that Specific Block, the mileage is high ?

For exalting the quality, we need to increase the MODULATION, and all the top Champions need to exalt the quality.

About the marathon, now we start to see some new athlete having the same goal : to exalt the SPECIFIC quality (running fast with great extension), while there are still other specialist using lower quality with great volume.

This can happen because, at Marathon Speed, the border between SPECIAL and SPECIFIC is not very well defined, and we can take advantage ALSO from SPECIAL VOLUME, with an intensity a little bit slower than SPECIFIC SPEED.

Why only now we have these type of athletes ?

I think because, finally, very young and talented athletes move to marathon. Before, top runners spent a full career on track, moving to marathon only when old and, already, consumpted and no more able to run fast like before.

Now, because the event of 10000m practically disappeared from the meetings, and also on road there are a lot of HM and Marathon, but very few competitions of 10 km with good money, many young runners able to run about 27' move immediately to longer distances, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY REAL MARKET FOR EARNING GOOD MONEY (If you are not one of the top 4-5 in the world in 10000m).

To be more young, it seems also to have different attitudes in recovering. But we speak about this another time.

Thank you for your explanation Renato. Makes perfect sense.

Renato,

Thanks for your explanations. A few questions:

-what are the consequences associated with reducing overall training volumes? My understanding is that long runs and high volume encourage the production of mitochondria within the cells, and promote the growth of capilaries for improved oxygen delivery. To what extent is the decrease in total volume (as shown in Shaheen's annual volumes) related to these factors?

-another part of high training volume, as I have known it, has been to allow for a balance and greater recovery from high intensity training. The analogy often used in the US is that easy and moderate, high volume training is putting money into your bank account, while high intensity training and racing is like taking money out of the bank. What is your thought on the concept of needing large amounts pf easy to moderate training to allow the athlete to handle and recover from their high intensity work?

-the individuals you speak about in these programs are obviously very talented and I think that you would agree that most have had lots of unofficial easy to moderate training, either from running to and from school, hearding goats, or whatever activity it may be. I think you would agree that this helps lay the foundation for all this work that they do now. Must the approach be very different for western runners?

-I have known the marathon to be a race that demands excellent use of fuel, as glycogen can only last so long. This has been one reason to justify running so much in marathon training, that the athlete needs to teach his or her body to use fat as a fuel, because fat requiresa long duration of activity to be accessed. How is that affected in runners such as Kibet not exceeding 130km/wk at this point? And is the quote from 2006 correct, in which he says that he trains as much as three times daily and runs 25km every morning?

Thanks again.

Canova Renato wrote:

One day of 2006, before running Zurich meeting (he was in a very better shape than when he bettered the WR in 2004), we used a SPECIFIC BLOCK like this :

Morning : 4 x 1600m (rec. 4'30") in 3'56" / 3'59" / 3'58" / 3'57"

Afternoon : 2 sets of 5 x 300m (rec. 30" between tests and 2'30" between sets), average of the first 5 : 38"3, times of the second set : 39" - 37"3 - 37"2 - 37"3 - 37".

Somebody can think that, during a week including that Specific Block, the mileage is high ?

This is incredible. So is this specific block just performed one day? or would a workout like this be performed a couple times that week?

You say

B]Canova Renato wrote:

"once every 3-4 weeks, a SPECIAL BLOCK (during the SPECIAL PERIOD) or a SPECIFIC BLOCK (during the specific period). Later I explain what they are."

Renato,

Obviously the day you listed for Shaheen in 2006 is astounding, but what is the goal of that workout (looks like 4x1600m at 3k pace and then 300s at faster than 800m pace)?

It seems like something none of us could do.