Derek Clayton

Hodgie-san wrote:

Clayton was 13th in Munich 2:19:49

In Mexico City he fought the altitude.

In the 74 Commonwealth Games he was suffering from bronchitis.

Maybe Clayton just did not run his best in the summer, when the major championships tend to be held. Some people are just better in the winter/spring marathons.

The 1970 Commonwealth Games and the 1972 Olympics were at sea level so Clayton has no one to blame for those poor performances except, probably, himself.

Barney - not sure if you thought the '6 min gutbuster' comment was Malmo's - for clarity's sake. That's me ("no one"), not Malmo re: 6 min gutbuster comment. Then and now I considered some/many of those workouts as difficult as my 'in the zone' seemingly effortless fast runs.

140 x 8 yr is ... impressive. Don't know how Clayton did it, as my build is virtually identical to his. My 'sweetspot' training level (upper end) was an ave of just under 120 - for about 4 years. Did venture to a high of 168, but it was clear that was not a sustainable amount. Several 130 - 140 - 150 but no steady diet.

The 118 +/- was ave on the year - thru races etc - so one can draw whatever conclusions. And during track my 'range' was 880 thru 10k - so dropped from higher mileage levels for 'fresh or semi-fresh legs'.

Actually I am convinced the breakdown of the mileage (specific workouts) is much more interesting, immaginative, and telling than a mileage number. In my way of thinking that was where the real coaching and training took place. I am equally convinced that this would be even more controversial. Why? But for a few here most would consider this to be the musings of a mumbler and ...

no one of consequence

no one wrote:

140 x 8 yr is ... impressive. Don't know how Clayton did it, as my build is virtually identical to his. My 'sweetspot' training level (upper end) was an ave of just under 120 - for about 4 years. Did venture to a high of 168, but it was clear that was not a sustainable amount. Several 130 - 140 - 150 but no steady diet.

He said "140mpw for months on end, for about 8 years..." not "140mpw for eight years".

Les wrote:

Maybe Clayton just did not run his best in the summer, when the major championships tend to be held. Some people are just better in the winter/spring marathons.

The 1970 Commonwealth Games and the 1972 Olympics were at sea level so Clayton has no one to blame for those poor performances except, probably, himself.

Often when an athlete trains at a high tempo and continual high mileage they are not able to peak at exactly the right time.

Championship races are the events where athletes with similar talent are all trying to achieve the same goal. Being the best on the day is the secret.

Ron Hill has also been considered to have fitted into the category of not achieving at Championships.

Whereas, if you look at Shorter, he was the ultimate Championship performer and is not known for fast times.

Why does everyone say that Hill couldn't peak for championships when he won gold at both the European Champs and the Commonwealth Games in an era when those meets were second only to the Olympics?

And ran 2:09.

HRE wrote:

Why does everyone say that Hill couldn't peak for championships when he won gold at both the European Champs and the Commonwealth Games in an era when those meets were second only to the Olympics?

When preparing write ups on the marathon athletes, you come across a lot of sentiment about Ron Hill underachieving. One of the reasons for this perception is that he was considered vastly superior to his peers of the time, however was unable to win the one that counted, The Olympic Marathon.

The Olympic Marathon was considered the Alpha and Omega of marathons in those years, with the Fukuoka Marathon of Japan rated as the next best.

Frank Shorter won in Japan on 4 occasions and the organisers felt it would destroy the lure of their marathon, so they didn't invite him back after his 4th win in a row.

Such was the standard of Fukuoka that in those days winning there would almost assure you of being voted the Marathon Athlete of the year.

Hill finished 2nd there in 1969, the same year he won Boston and The Commonwealth Games .. and for the 1st time [in that period] they voted an athlete marathoner of the year who hadn't won there.

Just a little background to marathoning in those times.

ps.. We are preparing a write up on Hill, thus the reason for echoing the sentiment ... this is how the write up will begin :

The most contradictory statement one could make about Ron Hill is to say "the man didn't win anything". People like to talk about Ron Hill as a person who could have done better "IF"

Yet this very same man was the 2nd person in history to crack sub 2Hr 10, a winner of the Boston Marathon as well as winner of both the Commonwealth and the European Championships. No mean feat.

yep - depending on what 'for months on end means' - would fit in the impressive end of things for me ... Barney - whats the deal? not that it really matters, but how many months consecutive or intermittent or -

not that it matters (because it clearly doesnt). usually about 6 months then crash and burn. recover, repeat the process. kind of sounds moronic in retrospect but made sense at the time. Improvement perpetuated the process.

barn - another 'curiosity' - how tall are you and how much you weigh - in the day

Hodgie-san wrote:

>Ryun's 3:55.3 as a senior in HS beating Snell was on a rubberized track, in San Diego, 1965.<

You are a glutton for punishment:

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/general/ryun/installment_01.pdf

I don't know what your pdf file is but here are two pictures showing the rubberized track in San Diego -- Ryun's 3:55.3 ahead of Peter Snell.

Here's a picture of Ryun's 3:58.3 mile at the Kansas state meet, still the only sub 4 in a high school meet.

Barney Buster, what are your PRs? Must've been good.

dunes,

Thanks for the links. The PDF is to the T&F News serial of the Ryun book. Check it out.

Looks like a clay track to me? Who knows? Mr Tubb, speak up!

5'9" 135lbs

afraid not. 2:24:59 31:16 I never claimed to be any good. I'm just commenting on Derek Clayton and the next thing you know malmo accuses me of cavorting with the penguin. That's harsh.

Hodge,

Thanks. I have that book, somewhere.

Is the rest of it on a pdf file too.

dunes runner, the photo Hodgie posted was from Compton Relays, where Ryun lost to Snell with a 3:56.4. As we all know Ryun exacted revenge to beat Snell in San Diego, where he ran his 3:55.

Barney Burner wrote:

afraid not. 2:24:59 31:16 I never claimed to be any good. I'm just commenting on Derek Clayton and the next thing you know malmo accuses me of cavorting with the penguin. That's harsh.

Very harsh! Cavorting with Penguins is a fate worse than death. Welcome to the thunderdome, Barney.