5 Key Marathon Workouts

Interesting. I would need more information. Its rare that I find someone who can run a marathon at 6:00 pace but struggles to do easy mileage at a 7:30 pace.

When you say your legs are sore what do you mean. Are they sore from the previous hard session or are they sore when ever you run at that mileage level.

I have had alot of luck with having runners doing 20-22 miles at 90%-95% of marathon pace.

I will usually include this workout once or twice in a 12 weeks sharpening period.

Some athletes really like it and include it more often.

Hi MPR,

Whenever I kick up the mileage I experience this problem. If I don't kick the mileage up my times seem to get slower. If I run sub 7's one night, it's hard for me to run under 8's the next.

It might be my work during the day that doesn't help. I'm a laborer working for a construction company.

BUMP

Hello MPR

i'm a 30+ 2:16 marathoner looking to improve on my times. at the moment i'm not really in the running mode and need to get a solid training progam with the aim of running 2:16 or better. i have never been a high milage runner but in my next training cycle i would love to get to 100+. i do believe it will help with my confidence.

No comment, just a big thanks to MPR. Excellent post, very informative. Thanks

Need to know wrote:

Hello MPR

i'm a 30+ 2:16 marathoner looking to improve on my times. at the moment i'm not really in the running mode and need to get a solid training progam with the aim of running 2:16 or better. i have never been a high milage runner but in my next training cycle i would love to get to 100+. i do believe it will help with my confidence.

My friend, as you probably already know consistency is the key. If you haven't been a high mileage runner in the past, be careful and build up slowly. Don't make any big mileage jumps in one cycle, but build on it cycle after cycle.

Don't think just in terms of this next cycle but in terms of the next 3-4 cycles. Maybe its 90 miles per week this cycle, 100 next cycle, 110 the following cycle then 120 the cycle after that. In marathoning terms 30+ yrs old is nothing, not if you start a consistent plan now and slowly build on it.

Good luck my friend,

MPR

Question for MPR: What would you say is a good distance for mid-week runs? You seem to like the number 24 for slower long runs, and 20-21 for harder long runs. But what about on the non-workout days?

Right now I have 2 workout days, 3 days where I run an easy 12-14 miles (at 80-85% of marathon pace), and 2 days where I run an easy 8 miles. I do an easy 5 every evening. Is this good? Should I be doing more like 14-16 on my morning runs? Is it natural to need two days of 8 miles or less every week? My total mileage on harder weeks is around 120. I am trying to build it to 140.

Also, do you advise rotating your five key marathon workouts in a cycle? ie, if I do two of your workouts each week, then I would essentially be repeating each one every 17 days. Is this correct?

Dude,

To paraphrase Frank Shorter, the main benefits you will get in training for the marathon are on your workout days and by doing as much mileage on the other days as you can without jeopordizing those workout days.

I think the weekly plan (mileage wise) you have described is sound. I wouldn't go longer than the 12-14 miles in one run on an easy day. Your goal of 140 per week is ambitious, be sure to get there slowly over a couple of cycles (i.e 120 this cycle, 130 next cycle then 140 the next cycle), letting your body adjust and adapt to the increased workload.

As I mentioned earlier I would utilize the 5 workouts I mentioned (originally at the start of this thread) during the course of your sharpening period but there are other good marathon workouts that can be included as well (i.e 20-22 @ 90-95% MP, 4 x 5k @ 101-102%, etc.). I generally don't repeat a workout any more often than once every 3-4 weeks. There are too many good workouts to choose from that work a system in just a little bit of a different way (there by sparking growth many times).

MPR

thanks a million MPR i will surely let you know how it goes. wish there was a way i could contact you but i understand you not wanting to post ya contact on this board.

Hi MPR,

I was directed to your thread by a friend of mine. Anyway, my question is on building up slowly.

I'm a 25 year old guy and I've been dealing with many injuries over the past 4 years. Currently I'm rehabilitating from a stress fracture in my femur. This is my second time fracturing the same femur in 2 completely different locations in the last 14 months. I've also had hip flexor strains, a calf strain, a stress fracture in my fibia, ITB pain and achilles problems all since 2004. Aside from some minor pronation, I have an efficient and smooth stride. My leg lengths are normal, and I have above average bone density. A friend of mine was a DI coach, and he says that I have almost perfect running form.

I'm a fairly low mileage guy, this past time I was running an average of 60-70 mpw, with an occasional week over 70. I was doing at most 1 workout per week, similar or identical to the types of workouts that you described at the beginning of the thread. 10 miles at marathon race pace, 3x2 miles, 15k progression run, 22 miles with the last 8 near race pace, etc... I was taking 1 mandatory day off every 14 days, and then a day off if I was feeling depleted or if I thought that I'd need it. The other days of the week I was running easy and relaxed, and I was very careful to recover after hard efforts.

I guess I just can't seem to handle 70 mpw. I try to build slowly, I try to be patient, and every time I think I'm being more and more careful, and yet I still end up having to take a 10-12 week period off at least every year or so. This last stress fracture was such a surprise, because I was feeling so great right up to a half marathon PR, only to be sidelined 2 weeks later.

I feel like once I get healthy I need to maybe do an entire year of not running more than 40-50 miles per week, because that would be more consistent than I've ever been.

Do you have any suggestions? Is there a way to build up to the miles? I would love to run another marathon, but at this moment I'm beginning to think I need to wait a few years just to get some consistent running beneath me. I'm sick of going to orthopedists who tell me that I am just not able to run that much. I'm not ready to just give up yet.

Any suggestions for an injury prone runner? Thanks in advance, so far you've had some really good advice.

Not Too Hip Right Now,

Intriguing description of what you are dealing with. Here is what advice I would give.

First and formost I would recommend you get on a regular strength and flexability plan. Muscle inbalances and lack of flexibility in certain areas can have more to do with injuries than mileage, especially if you have an efficient form like you have stated.

I would recomend a strength program that utilizes natural motions rather than isolated motions. For example, squats and lunges and plymoetrics rather than machine quad extensions and machine hamstring curls, as the natural motion exercises do a better job of strengthening ancillary muscles as well. Its best to strengthen the muscles in as similar a fashion to how they will be used in the real world and I don't see many isolation machines on the running trails.

Stretching is a key as well. Learn the latest on this, specifically for runners. Tightness in one area (as compared to surrounding groups) can lead to injuries in other areas (including tendons and other soft ligaments) by putting increased pressure and stress on them. A inbalance and muscles and flexibility can even lead to stress fractures by placing increased pressure on a area and by compromising form, especially when fatigued.

Now to the running. We need to break this cycle of injury and set-backs.

With your consistent starts and stops due to injury it may be likley that you are jumping back into quality work too quickly after your return to training. This is a common mistake because it doesn't seem that long ago that you were running fast and doing these great workouts.

Once you are healthy and gotten on a good strength and flexibility program, go back to the basics and build a solid base of easy mileage. Start out with just weeks of easy mileage at a mileage level you know will be pretty easy for you. Keep you long runs easy and between 20 & 25% of weekly mileage. Stay at a mileage level for 3 weeks befoe increasing it. When you increase mileage increases should be at a max of just 1 mile per run (up to a max of 10 miles per week). Do this until you back in the 60-70 miles per week range (may take a while, which is fine) and stay there. Once you have 3+ weeks at that level slowly start to add in a quality day per. Then after multiple weeks at this level add in a second quality day. Be consistent and take it slow. Put a cap on the effort leevel you use in the quality workouts, making sure to stay in the 7-8 range on a scale of 1-10.

Schedule planned recovery periods into your training. I like to schedule in 2-3 breaks of 10-14 days each year. I have my runners do no running the first 4-5 days and only half distance jogs the next 5-9 days. This is important for mental and physical regeneration/health. Generally I schedule these for periods after a goal race.

Then after your planned recovery period you can build a base for a few weeks to a new slightly higher mileage level and begin adding back in the quality runs. Take it slow and methodical and make progress in your mileage over a period of months and years and you'll see great benefits (think Deena Kastor - she added 10 miles per year for year after year until she was one of the top marathoners in the world).

I know that you may be wanting to get back at it and hammer out some more races and fast times but unless you deal proactively with your persistent injury problems you will continue to be sidelined and will not meet the progression you seek in your running.

MPR

MPR

i need some good advice so i'm willing to put some of my info on here.i know i run the risk of getting some stupid emails but hit me up at

depest@gmail.com

MPR

I am back to running after about 3 years of on and off running. I'm in week 10 of a 12 week base and up to 35mpw for the 2nd or 3rd straight week. Goal of 40 mpw by week 12's end. I'm going to add more hills and a hard tempo run for 6 weeks once the base is over, then do some stuff on the track.

Questions:

1. You said (and I was happy to hear) that you add mileage after completing a cycle. Though all runners are different, do you think making this comeback and not really consistently running this mileage ever, that I should cap it at 40, hold that for the 6 strength weeks, and worry about hitting 50-60 in the next cycle?

2. Out of sheer curiosity and I guess to determine my paces once I do start some track workouts, do you recommend a time trial after the 12 weeks of base? I was thinking a 2 mile.

Thanks.

William,

1. Do not add miles after the base period (i.e cap it at 40) and put a range on your mileage (i.e 35-40 miles) to allow for some variability in workouts and long runs. Then next cycle take it up some to say 45-50 miles and repeat. Make sure to take some recovery time between cycles.

2. Alot depends on background, what you did in races last cycle, the distance you are focusing on, etc.

If you don't have any recent races and are focusing on shorter races than a 5k timetrial or race will give you a good starting point. But if you raced extensively last cycle and have a good log to compare back to you can also probably estimate what level you are at pretty well. But as a side note, always start concervatively and increase if need be. I always like my athletes to slightly negative split workouts when possible.

Good luck,

MPR

Thanks.

You think 45-50 after another 12 week base? I was thinking I could get up higher assuming I held mileage for 3 weeks or so.

I'm training for 5Ks and 10Ks, so does that fall under "shorter races" since this is a marathon thread? I have no prior cycle to go off of. I haven't run a race in more than a year. Only thing I can go off of is 4 weeks of running 9 minute miles in August and I ran a 6:15 mile on the road.

MPR,

Thank you so much for that! I'm going to copy this and send it to some of my friends. I may have more questions for you so I hope that this thread can stay around for a while. Some great stuff on there.

One thing though, have you ever encountered someone who just can't handle X number of miles? Have you ever used cross training as a supplement? I am a firm believer in the fact that running is going to help a runner the most, but in my case I just keep breaking down. In my lay-offs I work like an animal on the bike and in the pool. I know that I can keep my cardiovascular fitness.

My friend has this theory with me about getting into shape too quickly. In the past, I'll be injured, I'll have a lay off, and then with in a few months I'm already setting a new PR or just running a breakout race, off of seemingly nothingness. He thinks I get fit faster than my body can handle. So I'm not feeling tired or run down, because cardiovascular I can handle it, and I feel rested. But my skeletal structure can't handle it yet.

Thanks again, and do you have any resources to find out more about the type of strength training that you suggest? Books? Webpages? I've been interested in plyometric type exercises before, but I've heard that to get the benefit you must do them correctly.

MPR wrote:

Example in calculating paces.

If marathon race pace (MPR) for you is 6:00 per mile (360 seconds) then:

80% of MRP is 360/.80 = 7:30 (450 seconds)

105% of MRP is 360/1.05 = 5:43 (343 seconds)

110% of MRP is 360/1.10 = 5:27 (327 seconds)

I was all confused by your post until I got to the end and you explained your calculation.

450 seconds is actually 125% of 360 seconds, or 25% slower than MRP.

When you take 80% of something, you multiply that something by 0.8, you don't divide.

Likewise, 327 seconds is actually 91% of MRP in the above example, not 110%.

Otherwise, interesting post. I will have to save it for my next marathon training cycle.

Dorothy always knows wrote:

MPR IS TINMAN. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

I doubt it for three reasons. First, the writing style is different. Second, the workouts aren't so needlessly overcomplicated. Third, he's not a dick.