Ramaala says American runners are innately equal to the African: I say that\'s B.S.!

Rock, some of what you say is true, but people don't become sprinters to make $. They leave sprinting to play football. And again, there have been COUNTLESS great runners and other great athletes that have not come from poverty. If poverty was by far the biggest reason for athletes succeeding, then you would see a lot of white sprinters from poor backgrounds.

And most importantly: There are more poor whites in this country than blacks (there are a higher % of blacks that are poor, but obviously a lot fewer blacks overall)-

"In 2003, among people who reported a single race, the poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites was 8.2 percent, unchanged from 2002. Although non-Hispanic whites had a lower poverty rate than other racial groups, they accounted for 44 percent of the people in poverty.

For blacks, neither the poverty rate nor the number in poverty changed between 2002 and 2003. People who reported black as their only race, for example, had a poverty rate of 24.4 percent in 2003."

44% white. If Asian, hispanic and others can even account for 6% of the rest of the poor in this country(which obvioulsy they account for a lot more than that), then there are fewer poor blacks than whites. THEREFORE.....based on your logic of $ being the major reason for people doing well at sports, there should be MORE top white sprinters in the US than blacks, right?

You are gonna have try harder Rock, because you still haven't given me a valid cultural explantion for why there are so, so many more blacks in the US that are great sprinters than there are whites. I knocked your poverty argument on its ass. Tons of white kids do sports that involve sprinting, and tons of white kids try sprints at their all white schools, but NONE IN OUR HISTORY have developed to be as good as the best black 100m/200m runners.

Try again.

I don't think the pro-genetics people are saying that the culture you grow up in doesn't affect your running. I think it's both genetics and culture/lifestyle. The people on here dismissing genetics completely are complete f***ing shitheads who have clearly never taken a biology class past high school.

Let me explain evolution to you guys for second. In west africa, it has historically been advantageous to be fast and explosive over short distances of time. To catch food. You don't catch food cause you're too slow? You're less attractive to females, don't breed as much, and die sooner. The fast, explosive people produced more offspring, and the population on a whole got faster and more explosive than cultures where these traits were not valued or neccessary. The same goes for east africans and long distance running. It was important for their survival, and those that couldn't run long distances to track food died.

Take a dozen newborn caucasians, west africans, chinese, indians, and east africans, and put them all in Nairobi Kenya to grow up. With a few possible exceptions, the 12 east africans will still be the best over long distances. It's not racist. It's not biggoted. It's evolution.

Genetic or not Africans train hard to get results. I used to run with Hendrick Ramaala when he was still attending The University of the Witwatersrand. We had a little group and we all ran in the 47 min range for 15km (at altitude. I put that in b/c that is as quick as I ran so I try to sound a little better than 47min with an altitude conversion). Hendrick told u sjust before going back home for Christmas that he was going to run 30km a day every day, we all thought he was nuts. We normally ran about 55 miles/week.

Long story short. When Hendrick came back after 6 weeks, he was at a whole new level, he continued to train with a new intensity and he has become one of the best in the world.

He didnt just wake up one day and run 60 min half marathons, he trained hard and long to get there. Hendrick is not alone. African runners in general train hard as hell because that is often all they have. They might have genetics but above all they have an incredible work ethic and tremendous desire.

in the u.s., it's really a crapshot as to whether a given athlete with a given potential will ever participate in the sport/event that could potentially maximize his potential.

parents dictate what sports the children begin playing, and even what position or event they play or particiapte in, no matter what predisposition they have genetically, sometimes based on past experience in that sport, sometimes out of convenience, sometimes just because the kid next door or a few kids in the class are involved.

when kids in the u.s. aren't participating in organized practices, they don't play/run/do much physical activity at all, no matter what the socioeconomic situation. so often they never realize, what sport/event would have better matched their genetic predisposition.

if we had a system of identifying talent at the youth level, testing using either rudimentary or, better yet, full-blown scientific methods, the u.s. could develop an unlimited stream of athletes at any running distance.

instead, we have helicopter parents moving their kids from team to team, club to club, sport to sport, bitching because their kid isn't the starting qb, pitcher, center-midfielder, point guard, etc.

the usatf could change everything by implementing a serious talent identification and long-term, centralized, expertly staffed youth development program from the outset of youth participation, and things would change. it is not a priority.

it is the common distance coach mentality to just wait until high school for the soccer rejects to start running cross country. no matter how many miles nenow ran, or any other distance runner, he will only reach whatever potential his genetic line has set him up for. and if that means around 27:30, then it averages out to 27:30, give or take a tactical race performance here, bad weather there. but there were more than likely 100's of individuals who could have run faster but never were identified and nurtured through a program that was run by the best coaches in the country, coaching the best youth in the country. e.g., a set up like down in Bradenton Academy, where tennis, soccer, baseball athletes are identified at the state and regional levels, then shipped down to bradenton for training.

Fins wrote:

I would wager that if 100,000 people packed stadiums all over the country to watch distance runners every weekend in the fall, the U.S. would dominate the distance rankings.

The sad fact is that most Americans would rather chase balls around than run--it's a cultural, rather than a genetic difference.

You don't hear many people talk about the Fins obvious genetic distance running superiority anymore.

Chase balls around? Perhaps, but Kenya's most popular sport is soccer, not running.

But you have been told many times also, that the Kenenisa Bekele does NOT share that genetic trait, so how can you claim that no one is willing to debate the issue with you. YOU ARE A LIAR, it is YOU who refuses to debate the issue.

As for the issue about sprinters of West African descent, that is a spurious claim of genetic superiority in sprinting, because if you were to actually examine the DNA of top sprinters, you would find huge genetic diversity that cannot be attributed to one area.

You are being pseudo-scientific, and whenever anyone points this out to you, you pretend you haven't seen the post and don't reply.

that the Kenenisa Bekele does NOT share that genetic trait, so how can you claim that no one is willing to debate the issue with you. YOU ARE A LIAR, it is YOU who refuses to debate the issue.

As for the issue about sprinters of West African descent, that is a spurious claim of genetic superiority in sprinting, because if you were to actually examine the DNA of top sprinters, you would find huge genetic diversity that cannot be attributed to one area.

...........................................................

Is there a link you can post that says he\'s been tested for that genetic trait?

Also if it\'s not that trait, surely there is another one that scientist may not even be aware of. After all, they only found out about that one several years back.For Gods sake, there are two brothers in that family who were running under 13 minutes before age 20. Ethiopian women are running faster that some of our college guys.You mean to tell me there is not some genetic kink there?

Sprinting ...you seem to have answers for everything ... what variety are you talking about? Be more specific! Just like in distance running, there are a few good ones comming from somewhere else. But the bulk of the sprinting world is genetically tied to West Africa.

One last question for you ...between distance running and sprinting, which one did you pursue to be so insigthful?

Please see my earlier posts!

One more thing about this trait.

You mean to tell me people on their national team don't share this trait? In that case they share a better one!

Did you even take a look at the graphs showing how their blood levels reflect the ones of people who live at sea level? Tha's V12 baby and if you believe otherwise, good for you then!

I'm not denying the presence of other factors. As a matter of fact I do support that theory. But like I said, it's easy to do the work when you're gifted and things come easy. They may put the same efoort in but get more results, that's for sure!

Tell the parents of the special needs child who is just learning the alphabet when his/her peers are doing arithmetic that we are all created equal and that if that kid just works extra hard in physics, that he/she can elevate Einstein's theory of relativity to new heights. Because, you see, genes don't make any difference whatsoever.

Seriously... genes make a difference but that is obviously not the only determining factor. It seems like most people dwell on the gene aspect and, like THE ROCK says, that makes you a LOSER. Stop worrying about crap you can't control and focus on being the best you can be. If you go through life saying, "Oh, they just have better genes than me, there is no point in trying," you're going to be nothing but a waste of space. Do you think Alan Webb spends his time worrying if his genes are inferior to the Africans? Just shut up and run. End this stupid f'ing thread.

snykaher already answered you for me. But, what?!?!?

I've been shown that Bekele doesn't share a certain genetic trait? By whom and when? This is news to me. And I didn't say no one will debate me about THAT issue (whether or not ethiopians have some potential genetic differences that might be advantageous for distance running. And anyway, snykaher brought up that study this time, not me). No, there are plenty of people that debate me about that all the time. And since when have I ever not been willing to debate people on this subject? Obviously I can't enough of it to a fault. What I WAS saying was:

** I am still looking for a cultural explanation for why black sprinters in this country are so much faster than white sprinters. ** Get it? You are attacking me and calling me a liar about things I didn't actually say. But hey, it's letsrun, so why not.

Nice try, but I never claimed that there is not genetic diversity amongst African American sprinters. But how much you want to bet that virtually all the best ones share west african DNA, and most have that as probably their highest % of ethnic heritage. Maybe tracing 70% of one's DNA back to west africa and the other 30% to a mixture of other areas might be ideal for sprinting, i don't know. What I DO know is: the best sprinters by and large have an ancestry from west africa, and sprinters who do not have this ancestry usually don't come close to doing as well. That's all I've said. THere is nothing spurious or "pseudo-scientific" about it. And I certainly never ignore posts of people who make such claims against me. Again, to a fault.

So.....one last time:

give me a cultural explanation for why sprinters with a large % of west african ancestry generally dominate sprinters without this ancestry.

There I took out the "black and white" just for you. I'll be waiting.

Sir Lance-alot,

Maybe we have beaten this one to death and skeptics here seem to have the upper hand. Plus if some young kid reads and bilieves our theories, may feel discouraged and that is not a good thing.

It's just too bad that some people don't understand these concepts!

It doesn't matter either way. All we can do about it is go running. Stop arguing and run.

BS is NOT inately equal to the Kenyans either. You are wrong!

A Kenyan runner gets in 18,000 miles before graduating from high school. You get 1,000 or less. If you weigh 18,000 miles to 1,000 miles of course the 18,000 mile runner will be superior to the 1,000 mile runner. Calling it an "inate ability" is a hard number to swallow. It is like saying 'Lazy is equal to Hard Working.'

What in the blue hell? Did Gerry Lindgren just say something that actually makes sense? The Rock, for once, is speechless.

The Rock is dumb as a rock!

JoggerGerry wrote:

BS is NOT inately equal to the Kenyans either. You are wrong!

A Kenyan runner gets in 18,000 miles before graduating from high school. You get 1,000 or less. If you weigh 18,000 miles to 1,000 miles of course the 18,000 mile runner will be superior to the 1,000 mile runner. Calling it an "inate ability" is a hard number to swallow. It is like saying 'Lazy is equal to Hard Working.'

Gerry, I love you.