John Walker - How great was he? How great could he have been?

Sorry I mistook you for AB and underestimated your 1500.

XCTC wrote:

Exactly. From 350m out.

I didn't say he had no kick.

so what do you define as the archetypal kicker ?

300m out ? 250m out ? 200m out ?

there is too much nonsense about walker, cram, morceli, el g not being able to kick from somewhere in the last lap & only being drivers

the observation is, that they were involved in few if any such slow, tactical races where that they probably decided it was stupid to wait until 200m out - race can become a lottery at this stage & even arguably the greatest kicker of them all - ovett - lost a 1500 final waiting to kick on the last lap

these guyz decided it was too risky in global champs ( olympics, world champ ) to risk waiting to last 200m & went for the big drive, but tell me if anyone seriously here believes that if they were involved in a relatively meaningless, slow, 3'45 pace world cup 1500, that they coudn't have gone ~ 25s for last 200 ?!

Cram did do about 25.8 for a final 200 once, winning a race in 3.46...... for the mile.

I saw John Walker run a 3000 in Melbourne in 1990 - just after he fell in the Commonwealth Games final in NZ - and he beat a strong field kicking from 150 out. It wasn't a fast race, and he was running against much younger runners, but he still had the speed to win in a sprint.

This, by the way, was on a cold, wet, windy night, when most of the top athletes in other events decided not to compete. While the other athletes were too precious to run in the rain, it was the 38-year-old with nothing to prove who insisted on getting out there and giving the crowd something to cheer about. We need more like him.

Getting back to the "tactics". Probably the best exhibition of solo front running John gave over a mile was in March '81 when he ran 3:50.5. That run was going to be his last in NZ for a while as headed to the US for what turned out to be a less than lucrative contract.

How many today could give an exhibition like that, without the careful selection of pacemakers !!!!!!

slaps, Eamon's kick worked best on a short indoor track. Outdoors was a different story. He needed to get the jump before they jumped him.[/quote]

Incorrect. Eamon's kick was just as devastating outdoors except his tactics in both Olympiads (4th places) were wrong. I think he would tell you that on both occassions he took the lead too soon. Also, physiologically, he was usually coming off long indoor seasons which hurt him a bit outdoors... blame the coach.

I remember Eamon running a last lap 54 to blow Coe away (or was it Ovett?) in a London 5k (Crystal Pallace). Eamon was a fabulous non drugged athlete. Coe had the benefit of EPO. That really stings the Coe lovers, (and I'm really freakin' sorry), but that's the truth, Ruth.

You were interesting until the coe-epo comment. Now shut up. Forever.

These-uns wrote:

You were interesting until the coe-epo comment. Now shut up. Forever.

No, nae, never. How's your boy Barry Bonds doing?

In a database (http://www.alltime-athletics.com/index.html)I found a mile run by Walker, which is not listed here: 3:53.8, Wanganui, 18.12.1982.

So, maybe the number of Walker's sub4 should be corrected?

Walker was really great! I started my running at the time when he became an Olympic champion and he was a great inspiration for me (the modest schoolboy). He was just unbelievable! He ran against everybody, any time, on each occasion. This is quite in contrast with some other athletes who picked carefully their races, afraid of being beaten and caring about their "image" of invincible champions. Walker could have stopped much earlier, when still at his peak, but he continued. He wrote in his autobiography (1985): "...I continued running for the very reason that I started it, for enjoyment. And while the enjoyment continued and while I could still run world-class times - with an occasional win - I neither saw nor felt any need of skulk off into retirement with my medals and my memories."

Great athlete!

Simply... LEGENDARY.

John Walker is simply - hard to surpass. Racing anyone, anywhere, in any state of body and mind, man ran 16 sub 4-minute miles in 1981 &1985.

Despite I grew up on Steve Ovett and his peak from '77 to '81 when he trashed Walker regularly, with ease, Sir John came with vengeance in '80's.

At 800m Ovett was better. Not by much (both were in 1:44 land, but Ovett has Oly gold, Walker Commie bronze). Both could ran faster .

Now, if i'm thinkin' who was better miler of the two - I'm not sure. Someone said that Ovett had insane range, winning some half-marathons in '65s, Have to say that Walker also won few of them (fastest in high 63s) and was also better XC runner than Ovett, finishing 4th at XC Worlds and 3rd at Cinque Mullni in 1975.

As for 1500m/mile - both were great and many of us remembers Ovett as a magnificent WR beater - he set 4 WRs in his career (shaving 0.15 secs in '80, than 0,13 secs in '81 of Coe's mile WRs, also lowering Coe's 1500m by 0.67 in '80 and Maree's by 0.47 in '83).

I don't count his 2 miles 8:13.51 in '78 vs Rono, tough a great race, simply because Puttemans ran faster indoors back in '73 and IAAF last recognized 2 mile WR was Foster's 8:13.68, marginally superior to Viren's 8:14.00 and Dixon's 8:14.32).

3:32.09 from 1980 for Stevie also not counts, cause it was just behind Coe's automatic time.

Walker set only two World Records (without 1500m indoor Long Beach in '79), but if Ovett in his 4 WRs improved the old marks by total of 1.42 seconds, just to remind You that Walker was the first man that run sub 3:50-mile, beating Bayi's WR by 1.6 seconds, more than Ovett totaled in his four WRs. And, yeah, Sir John broke 2000m mark of Jazy by almost five seconds, running very quality 4:51.52. Ovett, in few WR attempts at the distance never came within 6 seconds of that mark. Walker also had better PBs over 3000/5000m.

Despite the fact that Ovett has highly positive head to head against Walker (most of it 77-81) If we look at their careers, from 1974, first great year for both of them, I'm giving Walker the total edge in '74, '75 and '76, than Ovett ruled for 5 years 77-81, but slowed by railings in '82 tasted one of his most crushing defeats at superstars 3000m in London (while Walker ran his lifetime best and Oceania record 7:37 for 3rd place). Until the end of their careers Walker remained steady sub 4-minute mile performer while Ovett fell of the cliff.

Steve had better years than Walker in 1983 (farewell 1500m WR after both suffered at inaugural WC final) and 1986 (highly overrated 5k gold - African boycott - with Walker 5th in that final), but Walker had better seasons in '84 (famous for Ovett's bombing in L.A.), '85, '87, '88, and '89.

Both were spent by the late 80's, but Walker kept competing at higher level than Steve for a longer timeframe. In their last encounter at the track, on 7.8.1990., at Malmo, Walker ran 3:37 for 7th place while Ovett finished last, some 70 m behind.

For 40 years I was sure that Steve Ovett is untouchable, but as I'm closer to the grave, must say that John Walker was greater than him.

Souly said.

and - Walker has Oly 1500m gold, Ovett bronze...

Apologies if anyone has pointed this out, however in 1979 John set the world indoor 1500 record of 3:37.4.